>>275206
>There is bias from monetary, social, and political incentives.
And there is also bias against them. The current administration of the US is transphobic. The current administration of the UK is transphobic. They are the last socially acceptable minority to pick on and are being used as a scapegoat and pressure valve as an appeasement to the trad crowd. Of course I acknowledge that they have had their cheerleading, but it's not entirely one-sided in their favor.
>You don't mention which study it is or how it works and use it to come to a vague and abstract conclusion.
I thought I may have posted it in the last thread or maybe not. Regardless, I will post it again here:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8955456/
>Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or their gender identity. For this purpose, we analyzed a sample of 24 cisgender men, 24 cisgender women, and 24 transgender women before gender-affirming hormone therapy. We employed a recently developed multivariate classifier that yields a continuous probabilistic (rather than a binary) estimate for brains to be male or female. The brains of transgender women ranged between cisgender men and cisgender women (albeit still closer to cisgender men), and the differences to both cisgender men and to cisgender women were significant (p = 0.016 and p < 0.001, respectively). These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity.
The methodology is completely elaborated in the study and I will leave it to you for your appraisal.
Anyway, it confirms what should be intuitive common sense: the desire to to switch genders is derived from an innate condition. This condition is physical and can be clearly demonstrated through differences in brain structure. While trans brains are physiologically closer to their birth sex, they are also shifted away from it and occupy a middle ground between the structures of the two sexes. It is therefore a biological condition, not a social or cultural one.
>People can experience severe distress from not being their preferred sex but that doesn't mean their sex is the problem.
Trans people don't have a hard sex. As the brain imaging shows, they inhabit a middle ground. That is where the issue stems from.
>It's a mental condition that can't be solved just by talking someone out of it. It's overcome through maturity and personal development. There's no need to harm someone by having them transition when they can grow out of it.
The problem here is that while I think this is true in some cases, it's definitely not true in all of them. You have people transition well into adulthood, like 40's and 50's. You have people called 'reppers' that literally make a lifestyle out of suppressing their trans instincts. Some people are in fact born trans and we have proof of it, both scientifically and observationally, as this condition stretches into ancient times. You are just in a perpetual state of rejection of this reality, unfortunately.
>4cuck is partisan, not objective, and a corrupt business. They're known to arbitrarily suppress anything they find inconvenient. There's no reason LGBT discussion would be any different.
/lgbt/ just had a big row on a thread about LGB's wanting to break away from the T. I participated, as I think the entirety of it should be abolished, but that's another topic. There was very noticeable support for breaking off the T and hostility being thrown around on both sides. You presumably don't use /lgbt/, but if you did, you might not find it's as curated as you think. Wanting to drop the T is not a rare sentiment.
>Many people start transitioning on their 18th birthday if they couldn't get permission from their parents. Most people that transition are young in general.
Right, and there are many people that detrans. There's nothing wrong with detransing, either and I am one of those people who acknowledge the brain isn't fully developed until late 20's and any serious decisions before that should be weighed extremely cautiously. That said, there are people who have those feelings since childhood and it's only logical for them to act on them at the first possible opportunity, which I don't fault them. People make the decision to trans and they make the decision to detrans. It doesn't change the fact that being trans is a legitimate condition and there is permanent gender dysphoria in many individuals.
>Being on HRT is a handicap. It causes permanent and long term health problems.
And from what I've seen, I will not dispute on this. I generally accept that as true. Therefore, we are stuck with a dichotomy of harms: does HRT pose more or less harm in the long term to a trans individual? It may be worth it to take the physical hit as the mental cost might be far higher. Of course, I also think we should research more holistic and natural ways of transitioning if possible. I remember trying out soy milk as part of my diet and I stopped almost immediately because I could easily tell a difference in my personality even from the little bit of extra estrogen.
>It requires administering and being supplied with medications.
In the past, trans people used to drink pregnant horse urine, chew licorice root to lower testosterone and from I'm reading, spearmint tea. There are apparently naturalistic ways of increasing estrogen and decreasing testosterone.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14520600/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19585478/
>It's telling that MtFs are overrepresented in STEM.
I think it is, too and I don't think it's a bad thing.
>Not all STEM is productive, it can be destructive.
Knowledge is just knowledge. How people use it is what matters. Nuclear energy can be used to provide a cleaner alternative to coal or demolish a city *shrug*.
>Transitioners may be otherwise productive besides their drug abuse, that doesn't mean their drug abuse should be supported.
Bit of muddying the waters here. People don't use HRT for recreation. It's there to ameliorate a medical condition. It's not at all the same as drug usage where the end goal is to get high. The end goal of HRT is to feel more comfortable with yourself.
>It may be inhumane to deny an alcoholic alcohol, that doesn't mean alcoholism is good.
False equivalent and a very poor one at that. HRT doesn't stem from addiction.
>Transitioning makes people unhappy, in conflict with themselves, a negative influence, and is not optimal.
You're just speaking for other people, now. This is not the case. Try making a thread on /lgbt/ and get their opinions on it. It's helped a lot of people feel better with themselves and I do regularly see happy trannies with no desire to go back. Instead of making broad, false generalizations like this, try actually interacting with these people firsthand.
>It's a bad example to kids which are susceptible.
So is drinking, but that's pervasive in society, unfortunately. If I was a parent and my kid expressed trans feelings, I would talk to them about how we all go through phases and it's best to give it a lot of time to see if they are real. And again, I think very young people transitioning is a bad idea in many cases, but there is also people who've done it and never turned back. Ultimately, it is a diceroll and it is IMO, up to the individual and the parents to decide, not the government or society. They can always detrans later on if necessary and yes, acknowledge that there will have been effects caused by the HRT.
>It's a sad and defeatist mindset to suggest that troubled men should give up on being men and starting a family.
I don't think anybody is realistically suggesting that. If a male has trans feelings that legitimate, you're just causing undue harm by trying to force them to be something they're not. Maybe some incels transition. Oh well. That's not the rationale for the majority of cases.
>There are men that tried transitioning, detransitioned, and made families.
And good for them. They should have that option, just as trans people should have the option to pursue who think they are. No endeavor is without costs.
>This line of thinking is common among homosexuals, which explains partly why they are overrepresented among sadists, pedophiles, and psychopaths.
Pedophiles have a primary attraction to children and I regularly come across homophobic pedos on imageboards. Children are also the age group that is most androgynous, so trying to group homo or bisexuality with it is inappropriate. Furthermore, I am not entirely convinced that sexual minorities are overrepresented in "psychopaths and sadists" as those are slightly subjective things and could cover a broad range of things. I think there may be some overrepresentation among serial klllers, but I'm not sure and that's a different subject that maybe we can separate and discuss in the future. Let's leave it alone for now, hopefully.
>It's a symptom of living in a liberal hellscape where people are treated cruelly, unfairly, and have their lives crushed for the profits of wealthy investors.
The trans industry is quite small in comparison to the rest of the medical industry and again, there have been naturalistic methods trans people have used before modern times.
>You don't seem to get it but we like being anonymous here.
I'm not telling you because I'm hungry for attention or want to be picked out. I'm telling you because I find it relevant and I'm hoping that an explanation of my own personal experience can help you think about the issue from a perspective other than your own and I can't help that zzzchan has a small userbase.
>You should be able to get the point across without relying on your personal experiences.
I wouldn't talk about it if it wasn't relevant. I know what's it's like to deny who you are and the unnecessary pain that comes with it. It is a completely unproductive exercise. That is why I don't desire to do it to genuine trans people.
>It's using drugs to skip an essential developmental phase in a person's life. It's taking away a person's opportunity to learn how to accept their own life.
And not everyone's life is the same. Trans people are not like you and I. Their brains are different and you know my position on the age factor.
>It's not a medical condition. Someone's sex is not the problem when they've spent their young life up to that point being screwed by ((( society ))).
It is a medical condition and we have proof of it. We've also had these people around since ancient times, so they persist among any societal backdrop. You keep trying to frame it as a form of escapism; while that may be true for some, it is very obviously not true for all, most likely a majority.
>How would you know if I have ever dealt with gender dysphoria or been on HRT? You assumed I haven't because I don't support transitioning except as a last resort. Would it surprise you if I said that I've been on HRT?
I would be surprised and I would be very interested in listening to your experience. That said, again, you can't apply your experience to everyone else.
>I promote alternative ways of dealing with gender dysphoria, such as changing one's environment, trying psychedelics, or simply aging out of it.
And what if none of these work? What if they are "trutrans?" Are you going to force them to live in perpetual self-hatred?
>Do you not realize how much you lack self awareness?
I don't lack self awareness and you're using that concept wrong. I lack awareness of you, so I assumed you were projecting, since you've until now been witholding your personal experiences in the mistaken notion that they aren't relevant.
> If a transitioner dislikes homosexuals, is racially aware, and likes guns, it's a sign that they shouldn't be transitioning. They may be genuinely into their beliefs about their gender but are looking for an alternative whether they realize it or not, just like how they looked for an alternative to living as their original gender.
You're going to have to explain this one to me because I don't follow your train of thought here.
>When a person's body is completely healthy other than gender dysphoria, the problem is in the brain.
Correct and as demonstrated, they have brains that don't fit their birth sex. They occupy a middle ground.
>It may be true that the brains of transitioners don't match their original gender, but that doesn't mean transitioning is the answer or that they will stay that way forever.
And it may be true that transing is the answer and they do stay that way forever.
>Traditionally, these people have been referred to as "faggots".
And this is why a lot of people want separation from the T. I'm not a tranny and have no desire to be one - same thing goes for almost every other bi and homosexual man. You are lumping us all together when it is wholly inappropriate to do so.
>If you don't think psychedelics are profound, that they don't enhance mindfulness and meditation
I acknowledge that they can help with personal growth, but they should be used as a supplement, one that isn't even necessary. The real growth comes from sobriety, hard work and non-drug induced introspection.
>that they don't teach you to master your mind
They don't teach you to master your mind. A drug will never teach you discipline or perseverance. There is an irony that is lost on you in which you decry using HRT as a crutch, but likewise have the same relationship with psychedelic drugs.
>Gender dysphoria requires changing the way a person thinks, and that's what psychedelics are for.
And again, I've chatted with a WN tranny that had a history of psychedelic drug use and still decided to transition.
>You're bullshitting if you claim that a high dose of LSD wouldn't permanently change someone's worldview.
I'm not disputing you on this. I'm disputing you putting forth the notion that your experience is the same as everyone else's. This is why I don't take your drug evangelism seriously. You've taken LSD and yet you still can't consider any position other than your own.
>Obviously, shitskins wouldn't be able to benefit from it.
Ironic, as the Native Americans have psychedelics embedded into their culture, whereas actually respectable people like East Asians went for the non-druggie route of mental cultivation. So who has the better civilizations, East Asians or the Native Americans?
I'm not trying to insult you, but you really have to realize that you keep trying to fit everything into your own worldview.
>They are in the same category. HRT is known to change people's sexual orientation but their genitals stay the same.
They're not in the same category. One has gender dysphoria and the other actively celebrates their sex to the point of exclusivity.
>A person's life experience plays a major role in their personality and sexual preference.
Which are interpreted through their genetics. Genetics is the core, the foundation. It's the programming. Two people can experience the exact same thing, but their response will be different due to their genetic character. Humans are mechanistic creatures, just like any other. It is our complexity that creates the delusion otherwise.
>Those same people that accept being replaced accept gender ideology.
And yet this notion is routinely disproven every time I visit /lgbt/. Being trans doesn't mean you're OK with being replaced, which is why we have anti-globalist trannies.
>They're demoralized to the core.
Some are, some are not. Stop acting like they're all the same.
>You think brain scans prove that people are born as the wrong gender? Are you sure you're arguing genuinely and not just practicing deflection?
We can see structural differences between races. We can see structural differences between sexes. We get to trans people and all of the sudden brain imaging is suspect because it doesn't fit the preferred narrative.
>What do you know about interpreting something as complex as a brain scan?
I read the studies and come to my own conclusions after reading their methodologies. You wouldn't be hassling me about this if I were talking about the cognitive differences between niggers and Whites, nor men and women. You observe something in reality, like race and sex differences and when you see actual evidence supporting what is plainly obvious, it's difficult to rationally doubt it because there is not enough evidence against it to.
This is what pisses me off about "trad" people, something that is shared with the "woke" crowd. Science is all good and dandy until it goes against the narrative: "Oh, races are all the same", actually this study - "that's a bullshit study!" That's what you're doing. Yes, we should all try and discern to the best of our ability and be sceptics and yes, there is confirmation bias, so if you want to read the study and try to rebut it, go ahead and I will listen to you. I'm not trans and I'm not a gender warrior, so this isn't an ideological battle to me. It's just me telling you what I observe in the natural world.
>Gender dysphoria doesn't kill by itself. It leads to suicide. That's a sign that someone is a basket case of mental issues.
From what I've seen, it's mostly the "liberal" trannies that this fits most. The more reasonable ones are stabler.
>It's "naturalistic" yet organisms are built for procreation with the opposite sex.
They are, but that doesn't preclude the existence of emergent properties.
>Homosexuals tend to live in liberal sanctuary cities.
They also live in small towns, suburbs and so on.
>Gay neighborhoods tend to have a lot of sex shops and nighclubs.
I believe this is characteristic of low intelligence, rather than purely of homo or bisexuality. Of course men have higher libidos, so when individuals do not have more intellectual interests, as is the case with the overwhelming majority of humans, they default to more low hanging fruit, which manifests more aggressively due to inherent male behavior.
>Are you sure that's not because you don't know how?
I know how to, but I choose not to. Tell me, what is the appeal of ban evading? If I can't talk on here for a set period of time, I find other ways to occupy myself.
Let me just reiterate that despite our disagreements, I do appreciate your civility and ability to converse. I do not want you to think this is a matter of hostility.