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READ THE RULES


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There's a prevailing sentiment online that waypoints, compasses, other directional HUD elements, and signposting are as necessary for a general audience as they are obnoxious for a niche one. The main blame is the average person's intelligence, but there's also people citing engagement metrics and even graphical fidelity as being problems, but what about the developers themselves? So many games nowadays have highly contextual animations and low levels of interactivity that it might not even occur to players that they can even experiment. Does the simple act of adding details and interactions, even if they are considered superfluous and have no effect on how the game is played, spur enough creative thought to get most people past the need for yellow paint? By being so accessible, are developers literally making players stupider?
>>317764 (OP) 
>is it this extreme
>or that extreme
Only math questions are black or white, almost everything regarding the human condition is many complex and multifaceted shades of grey. In this case the answer lies in the middle: people operating under the assumption what you can do in a simulation is more limited than they think; misunderstanding or not understanding design language because of a lack of experience with the media, or actual limited cognitive abilities which result in low desire to explore and experiment. Developers dumbing down games is just shareholders telling them to do so to reach bigger audience that wouldn't normally consume said media and make number go up.
Replies: >>317771 >>317784
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>>317764 (OP) 
>almost everything regarding the human condition is many complex and multifaceted shades of grey
fag
for >>317765
you get the idea
>>317765
>complex and multifaceted
Like a Coke Freestyle machine.
Yes you fucking retard of an OP, current gamers are retarded.
Anyone who partake in current day triple gay bullshit actively reduces his thought functions and his gray matter capacity. Add to that the social media fast dopamine rush addiction and you've got yourself drooling retards.
A human need to be challenged to evolve or learn anything. There's a reason why old school gamers were a lot better at puzzles all around and solving shit plus generally better at learning new stuff.
If you were ti give any of these niggers that only play this current day bullshit the first professor layton game and held them at gunpoint to finish it, they couldn't.
Hell, I'm sure that if you gave them minesweeper, they couldn't even fucking figure it out on their own.
>>317764 (OP) 
My memory is super fuzzy, but regarding the tube in Super Metroid, wasn't it the case if you left the game on on the title screen long enough that it went through like a demo play sequence that'd show you how to get through that section?
Replies: >>317819
>>317812
No.  But it does show you how to infinite bomb jump.  You can also travel through Maridia up to that point by taking the entrance east of the Wrecked Ship.  When you get to the tube through that route it's very clear the key to progressing further is above the tube.
Replies: >>317841 >>317924
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They're educated stupid

In the not too distant past, numerous literal 6-year-olds routinely stumbled their way through a BASIC prompt to play games like Ultima and Zork, where they would keep notes on paper, including maps drawn on graph paper, and actually beat these games, having enough fun that they would buy more of them.

Regarding your specific conjecture about a vicious cycle of low expectations, however, I am reminded of the issue of clutter and false player accommodation in newer games.

DXHR was designed with far greater environmental detail than prior immersive sims such as the original Do Sex, including large amounts of knicknacks and greebles permanently bolted into the single giant level mesh. In order to retain something like the prior games' puzzle design, an omnipresent yellow outline highlight was used to distinguish interactable objects from all this new background clutter, which of course destroyed the subtlety prior games relied on to make their puzzles feel natural instead of demeaning. Fan outcry during prerelease publicity caused them to make the outlines a toggleable option by release, and with it disabled then of course it became needlessly difficult to

In the opposite direction, modern Bethslop from Oblivious onward has increasingly been designed with waypoint compasses and fast travel in mind. This disincentivized Bethesduh from putting anything actually interesting inbetween point of interest, which makes the organic experience of anybody disabling those features to actually explore the purportedly open world worse, which further pushes new players and devs alike to lean even harder on the fast travel/quest compass crutch.
Replies: >>317872
Oopss
>became needlessly difficult to guess where a puzzle is hiding.
Replies: >>317872
>>317819
They learned their lesson in Zero Mission. There's a similar tube at the very end and it is shown off in a demo IIRC, but it's only needed for 100% to get out of the endgame area and clean up the rest of the map.
Replies: >>317856
>Gamers are retards
>Modern game devs are retarded
>More artists on a team than level designers
<Those artists are also retarded

Retards are making games for retards, it's a downward spiral. No one knows how to make a level intuitive to traverse, and niggers with a PS5 can't think for themselves anyways. So you get buckets of yellow paint everywhere.
Replies: >>317854 >>317881
>>317843
Don't worry, it's not because they're retarded or lazy. It's because they're "busy"
Replies: >>317881
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>>317841
>They learned their lesson
What was the lesson?  That Metroid needed a shitty remake full of handholding that completely misses the point of the original game?
Replies: >>317875
>>317822
>>317823
>Fan outcry during prerelease publicity caused them to make the outlines a toggleable option by release, and with it disabled then of course it became needlessly difficult to guess where a puzzle is hiding.
How would you solve this? Take out all items that can't be interacted with and potentially limit art direction or put extra dev time into adding interactions (e.g. toilet flushing, turning sink on/off)?
Replies: >>317881 >>317882
>>317856
Well how else would they make wymins buy a game like Metroid. it's best if you just make it brain dead as them.
Replies: >>317881
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>>317764 (OP) 
>Are gamers born retarded or are they just well-practiced?
My guess is that it's the latter, both from my own reading and from what I've observed.
Watching streamers play Peripeteia's tutorial level and discussing what I observed with the game's former level designer (we go back a long ways) was interesting. Initially I noticed that experienced FPS players were noticeably worse at navigating the levels than 3DPD and people who played very few 3D games, which was really weird to see even after I realised what was going on. Basically, the former weren't actually navigating levels the way they would a real-world 3D environment, but had basically conditioned themselves to be pulled around video game levels by "subtle" level designer tricks, and were utterly lost if a game level had less of these than usual. Most of these tricks are borrowed from Disney theme park design, which is explictly intended to magnetically pull a fat tourist around a theme park with zero conscious effort. In the absence of these, players would do things like stare directly at a giant glowing building while saying they had no idea where said building was, subconsciously assume they couldn't climb over railings even though the game was built around climbing mechanics, and generally wander around in a daze like headless chickens.
What was really interesting was that after some time of this, some kind of mental switch would flip, and players would suddenly find they understood 3D spaces better and could navigate just fine. The question became: how could the level designer help the player flip this mental switch as soon as possible? What he settled on was spawning the player inside a pit, thus forcing him to learn how to actually look at the environment and learn the climbing mechanics as soon as possible. This would also gatekeep anyone too stupid to escape the pit.
The funny thing is that this largely worked. The amount of level design complaints the devs received plummeted.

All the above is especially ironic when you learn that spatial memory is something humans actually have an innately high capacity for. We're really good at things like perceiving and remembering room layouts, and it's a skill that comes so easily to most people when it's actually trained (aka when we aren't letting Google Maps route everything for us) that much of classical memory training is all about exploting this. It involves techniques like mentally tying datasets to objects in physical spaces, and remembering them by taking an imaginary walk through the location.
This is the exact opposite of the basic underlying assumption of modern level design, which is that people inherently have the memory and spatial awareness of a goldfish. The modern level designer believes that people must be coddled, rather than encouraged to bring out and develop their natural abilities. That's not to say that a gamedev has to go to the extremes of the example I gave (the guy's a massive urbanex sperg who wanted to capture that experience in a video game), but I do believe that a lot of game and software design is effectively backwards, as much of it is about perceiving, thinking, and remembering for the user instead of helping him to become better at doing these himself.
>>317843
If that was case for games only we wouldnt have much to complain about(in general).
Sadly this is about the story of mankind, it may seem like we had a state of ascending and then declining, but ultimately it was always an attempt at making things simpler for themselfs and therefor less challenging resulting in weakness being bred, games just are the last frontier where this sickness creeps in, this is about a solid sign of the end.
>>317854
Well if they are retarded any lazy they are busy with something, besides when the customer is retarded and cant tell the difference why bother putting in that extra work.
>>317872
Sin from 94 had faucets and toilets you could flush, they served no purpose but made the world feel interactive in some way and had other stuff too that was either a joke or just pointless stuff to make the world more interactive.
It was great fun alone to find out about these sorts of little gimicks, hell in hl2 i mad small stupid childish games with the gravity gun and props, how wrong is the world to have degraded from that state to this oversimplified crap that we have now.
>>317875
Can you blame em?
The fairer sex made so much money from baiting sex for cash and spend it on such stupid mindless bullshit because they are mindless and full of shit so isnt it only good and right that other men help get that money back(the irony is they will probably spend it on hoes anyhow, closing the cycle).
>>317877
Very insightful post, gives quite something to think about.
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>>317872
The first approach (simply follow the conservation of detail design principles of the earlier games) is the simplest, and could even maintain verisimilitude through an in-world conceit of more spartan settings (space station, submarine, lab, hotel room, etc.) or fashions in decor. The second as suggested in your OP would help "prime the pump" for non-puzzlegame-players to get into puzzlegame mode , but in order to actually facilitate puzzle solving and discovery rather than just poking at stuff until something gives in, the puzzles would need to be made less like Deus Ex (finding hidden buttons and panels) and more like Red Faction or Half Life 2 (physics and other systems simulation.)

One other approach, though far more demanding, would be to lean all the way into more detailed environments with more forensic mechanisms for inspecting them, such as footprints, dust deposits, stray fibers or twigs, stains, fingerprints (even things requiring new UI, like smells, temperatures, or air currents), etc. though then you need to round out the environment with enough detail it feels immersive and doesn't loop back around to insultingly obvious like Detective Vision in Batman.
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>>317877
You've said a lot that I agree with and provided some good references, but since you actually seem to be in the space, do you think that the best way to entice people to act creatively is to force them to respond to a situation or that it could be even more subtle through observation? One thing that I was really keen on in my project is taking a page out of fighting games by giving players and NPCs the same set of actions so players can learn that they can do something even if it isn't made clear through explicit instruction.

>>317882
>One other approach, though far more demanding, would be to lean all the way into more detailed environments with more forensic mechanisms for inspecting them, such as footprints, dust deposits, stray fibers or twigs, stains, fingerprints (even things requiring new UI, like smells, temperatures, or air currents), etc. though then you need to round out the environment with enough detail it feels immersive and doesn't loop back around to insultingly obvious like Detective Vision in Batman.
One thing that I REALLY liked about Red Dead Redemption 2 is the commitment to details. They did a lot to make sure that horse trails could be followed or certain mission placements being where you would expect to instigate them. It's by no means perfect and there was a lot of frustration with how scripted the missions were, but much of the game can be played without the HUD.
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Computers went wrong when they started publishing games commercially, and you no longer had to write your own or type in a listing from a magazine (and often needing to adapt it from a different BASIC dialect).
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>>317915
Computers went wrong when they started using electricity. There, now I'm more contrarian and therefore more better than you.
Replies: >>317920 >>317922
>>317919
actually computers are made by jews for goyim nigger cattle sedation, real aryan ubermensch like me use pen and paper written binary code sent by carrier pigeons. you're clearly a pajeet troglodyte not 100% aryan promax like me so your opinion is invalid, hypocrite.
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>>317919
It doesn't actually matter if the computer is mechanical or works on electricity. Either way you will still refuse to make your own games.
>>317819
I'm having a Berenstein Bears/Mandela Moment. I SWEAR I remember being stuck forever there as a kid. I popped in my cartridge and you're right, it doesn't show it in the attract mode, but I still can't believe it.
I'mma play through a new file until I get power bombs and see that tube and leave it on attract mode and see if anything changes. The more I think about this, the more I think I was stuck at that point, and remember just kind of blindly sitting at the title screen trying to think through what to do when I saw it being hinted at there.
>>317877
I still have a complaint about the level design, or at least my gpu does.
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