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I don't think Valve is a remarkable company and I think their history in gaming is quite overrated.

Counter-Strike: Basically the Call of Duty of PC. It's the biggest because it's the most accessible. It doesn't have the skill demands of Quake or Unreal, nor even more realistically oriented tactical shooters. It's not a bad game by any means, but it's nothing special except in regards to popularity because it was there to catch the people that got filtered out of arena shooters of the time. 

Left 4 Dead: I love L4D.....that is, the first one, the one that wasn't made by Valve, but by Turtle Rock, before they were then immediately purchased by Valve. Valve itself would then go on to develop the absolute garbage that was L4D2, thus ruining the series. 

Half-Life: Somewhat of a forerunner to "cinematic experiences" (barf) experiences in games, I remember playing the Orange Box on 360 as a kid and being thoroughly unimpressed by Half-Life 2. It was nowhere near the quality of Halo 1 and 2 or Gears of War as a shooter. It was a novel, enjoyable game, but ultimately just an average experience overall. Team Fort 2 never really did that much for me and again seemed to serve as a more accessible alternative to more demanding shooters. I was however quite a Portal fan, at least. 

Dota 2: I'm more experienced with other MOBAs, but I think the art style of Dota 2 is quite ugly and I also think that MOBAs in general are a more casual alternative to RTS/RTT. I don't regard MOBAs as a legitimately competitive genre because of balancing issues, but I of course don't think that's any reason not to enjoy Dota or MOBAs in general. I just don't think Dota is that special.

All in all, I think Valve is simultaneously a slightly above average to mediocre company and their popularity is primarily due to accessibility on PC. They're the corporate man larping as a gamer's company.
TF2 was good before they ruined it. Portal was fine. Portal 2 was decent although they tried (and failed) to implement the micropay item system jewry onto it. I also like their permissiveness with the Souce engine that allowed many good independent sourcemods to flourish.
The best praise I can give them is their work on Linux. No other big gaming company on Earth would do what they're doing there.
Replies: >>312630 >>312673
>>312621 (OP) 
I don't really hate Valve, but I agree that it is overrated as a company, and it's pathetic that many people even on imageboards treat it as a "based" corpo that's totally different from other gaming corpos, and act as if it's "based" to bootlick it.
It's as gay as people on imageboards who worship mods.
Replies: >>312673
>>312621 (OP) 
To be fair, most people don't even bring up their games when they praise Valve, it's mostly about how they are not as extremely jewish as other companies. In a better world they would be below average at best when it comes being customer friendly, but we live in the most boring cyberpunk dystopia imaginable, so even Valve can be seen as a positive force. 
>>312623
>The best praise I can give them is their work on Linux. No other big gaming company on Earth would do what they're doing there.
To be fair, their work is both important and overrated. Normalfags genuinely think that you couldn't play anything on Linux without Valve, meanwhile back in the early 2010s it was already possible to install the Wangblows version of the Steam client and play games via that with Wine if you were so inclined.
>>312621 (OP) 
Game wise I really like Half Life and the two Portal games. I spent a lot of time playing them and the mods and custom maps the community made out from them. Half Life 2 wasn´t as enjoyable to me thought, with it´s overtly intrusive "interactive" cutscenes and downgraded weapon and enemy variety from the first one. Also played a bit of TF2 at the time and had fun. But seeing how both Valve and the community ruined the game made me stay away from it for good.
As a company I consider them now as scummy as the others. From not owning your games and censoring games to the DRM shit they use and allow in their shitty store.
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borderline but I'll take it
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>>312642
There is no borderline. This isn't a template thread. Your brain isn't working correctly.
Replies: >>312645 >>312647
>>312642
>>312643
Cuckchan-obsessed schizos are the true spiritual cuckchanners.
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>>312643
It's a generic talking point that's been re-re-re-re-re-reposted thousands of times by now. It gets the same room temperature takes reposted every time it appears like a template thread, it clogs up the front page like a template thread. Moreover >we just had this "discussion" in the news thread.
Replies: >>312650
>>312647
>It's a generic talking point that's been re-re-re-re-re-reposted thousands of times by now.
I don't use this board much and what little I do, I haven't seen much criticism of Valve's games themselves. 

> Moreover >we just had this "discussion" in the news thread.
Here?:
 >>304706
There were some posts criticizing Steam's economic practices. There were no criticism or dialog about their games.
>>>/v/312621
>Left 4 Dead: I love L4D.....that is, the first one, the one that wasn't made by Valve, but by Turtle Rock, before they were then immediately purchased by Valve. Valve itself would then go on to develop the absolute garbage that was L4D2, thus ruining the series. 
And yet it was valve that made the games good, since the devs made back4blood and evolve
Replies: >>312660 >>312673
>>312658
Hey... Fuck you. Evolve was the best 1v4 asymmetrical slop. I miss it.
Replies: >>312664
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>Counter-Strike: Basically the Call of Duty of PC
<Counter strike came out slightly before Cod which has also been on pc since the first game
Wow that sure is a retarded point
>I'm more experienced with other MOBAs
<he actually play or actively watch assfaggots
So you're a retard with no taste.
>I don't use this board much and what little
Yeah your thread and you smell like a fucking tourist, that's for sure.
Replies: >>312673 >>312707
>>312660
The only good thng about it was the porn.
game night when?
Replies: >>312667
>I'm more experienced with other MOBAs
You mean you're trash at DotA, then. Fuck you shitkid. All of these shit games are derivative of DotA. If you just shit on DotA for "muh art style", you shouldn't be playing the genre anyway. I say this as someone who prefers Heroes of the Storm because it is the only one to respect my time, but it's a shallow experience in comparison. I am just too old and cynical to enjoy DotA after 10,000+ hours of playing it between the two games already. Still better than LoL or any other derivative trash, though HoN may be the best (if it even still exists).
Replies: >>312673
>>312664
>porn
...wat? Why?
Replies: >>312678
>>312623
>TF2 was good before they ruined it.
Care to fill me in? What did they do?

>The best praise I can give them is their work on Linux.
I agree here. I think this is genuinely valuable. I will also tip my non-existent hat to Sony and their support of FreeBSD. The PS4 and 5 actually run on modified versions of it and Sony has supported FreeBSD throughout its involvement. I personally wish Free became the dominant alternative over Linux, but it is what it is. 

>>312624
I don't hate Valve, either, but I don't think the body of their work is that strong. 

>>312641
> Also played a bit of TF2 at the time and had fun. But seeing how both Valve and the community ruined the game made me stay away from it for good.
You're the second poster to say this, so I'll extend the same question. What did they do? Now I'm curious. 

>DRM they give you the option of uploading your game with or without it, but I do prefer a harder anti stance, personally. 

>censoring
Yup, they cucked to the payment processors. 

>>312658
IDK what to say. Turtle Rock struck out with these, but I also never said Turtle Rock was permanently good. They had it with the original L4D and then it seemed all downhill from there. 

>>312661
>Wow that sure is a retarded point
Nope, CS serves as the equivalent to COD - it's the popular, accessible with lower overall skill requirements. 

>So you're a retard with no taste.
I don't really care for MOBAs that much. I don't consider them to be a genuinely competitive genre and I don't think they require as much skill as FPS, RTS/RTT, fighting or racing games. 

>Yeah your thread and you smell like a fucking tourist, that's for sure.
I use zzz, but not /v/ as much. I don't use imageboards in general as much as I used to. I don't care about socializing as much as I used to. 

>>312665
>You mean you're trash at DotA, then.
Not really, I have very little experience with it.
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>>312673
>Not really, I have very little experience with it.
Yes, you are. You are extremely shit if you've never played it and you can't handle shitty DotA1 WC3 grafix or shitty DotA2 Source grafix. DotA is the birthplace. If you can't handle DotA1 or DotA2, you suck. HoN is the honorable mention because it didn't remove nor change as much crap that made WCIII DotA great as DotA2 did, but it also sucks. The entire genre is bad and will destroy your sad life. Play something else.
Replies: >>312677 >>312707
>>312674
Anybody is shit at anything they have little experience in. 

>The entire genre is bad
I know, hence why I don't care for MOBAs. They're inherently unbalanced and flawed. MOBAs shouldn't be taken seriously as any kind of esport or competitive game.
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>>312667
>He doesn't know
You missed some good and fun threads were shills paniced when /v/ was posting Wraith porn instead of talking about the game.
Evolve wratih thread I guess.
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>>312621 (OP) 
They do alright compared to others.  They want money but at least the fat fuck was honest about money driving business.  That and Proton and Linux support.
Replies: >>312690
>>312686
That's the one "good" thing you can say about them: they're in it to take their piece of the action, not revel in sin and ontological evil like pretty much every other company of a similar size. That means they stand by when Stripe declares war on beauty (since fighting would threaten their piece of the action) but they also at least try to provide a useful service and will act to protect it, which is why they went full throttle on Linux support.
I know this is off-topic, but I think GOG are idiots for not previously prioritizing Linux support like Valve. DRM free games, old games and Linux.....if you built a Venn Diagram of those things, it'd probably be an almost a perfect circle in regards to the consumer base of each.
Replies: >>312695
>>312692
>focus on less than 2% of the PC userbase 
>and that's after almost a decade of Valve putting massive support to Proton with the powers of a multi-billion dollar corporation and a hardware launch
Genius idea, what could possibly go wrong?
Replies: >>312697 >>312734
>>312695
I already explained it. Linux is less than 2% of the PC base, but it will be disproportionately higher among people who value DRM-free gaming. Use your head.
Replies: >>312702 >>312734
>>312673
>Care to fill me in? What did they do?
Added cash shop for items
Made the game F2P so players went from decently competent to 99% absolute retards overnight
Added loot boxes and trading so half the playerbase became traders and item obsessed losers
Added tons of items with no regard for balance or aesthetics
Mangled the game's art style beyond belief

This is all from the early 2010s, I can't comment on how bad it got beyond that because I stopped playing.
>>312697
>use your head
>fails to realize that a higher percentage of a small number is still a small number
Replies: >>312734
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>tactical shooter [...] doesn't have the skill demands of [arena shooter]
I don't think either subgenre can really be placed above the other
>I remember playing the Orange Box on 360 as a kid
That's bait
>quality of Halo 1 and 2 or Gears of War as a shooter
Controlstick auto-aim slop (that even retained auto-aim in the PC ports!) doesn't meet even the bottom bar to qualify as a shooter, let alone a game, and that's before you get into regen health or GoW's chest high wall addiction.
>Somewhat of a forerunner to "cinematic experiences" (barf) experiences in games
That's really the only valid criticism of the game as a whole
>I also think that MOBAs in general are a more casual alternative to RTS/RTT. I don't regard MOBAs as a legitimately competitive genre because of balancing issues
>>312674
>The entire genre is bad
This can't be overstated:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210127133250/https://learntocounter.com/why-dota-sucks-2/
Among its countless sins, perhaps the worst was its terrible abuse of skill-based matchmaking, IMHO holding more blame than even XBL.

>>312661
>Counter strike came out slightly before Cod which has also been on pc since the first game
That's a bit of an understatement considering both that the Quake version is 6 years older than CoD, and that both it and the pre-Pixar-ized TF2 prototypes recieving widespread prerelease coverage shaped the entire contemporary tacticool multiplayer subgenre long before CoD:MW & R6:Lockdown watered it down for console.
>>312621 (OP) 
>Valve itself would then go on to develop the absolute garbage that was L4D2, thus ruining the series. 

Why though? I have always preferred 1 for many reasons, but 2 isn't that bad. Isn't it possible to make 2 like 1 after the last update? Yeah i know you can't exactly replicate the atmosphere but still.
Replies: >>312719
>>312718
L4D1 campaigns have been in L4D2 for 15 years.
Replies: >>312736
People like to attribute Steam as the death of Valve, but it wasn't even that, it was the hats in TF2. Proto-lootcrate live service bullshit and it completely ruined the aesthetic of the otherwise great game, not to mention it gave rise to loot crates in CS-GO that were so toxic that it led to an entire gambling ring forming around them that is active to this day. This is what ruined Valve, alongside not actually making any games, before that they were an amazing studio. Half-Life 1 and 2 alone revolutionized FPS games, hell single player games, as we know them, and HL2 really pushed the tech ahead at the time. Counter Strike was a great PC online shooter, Portal was a unique little gem, I could go on, but eventually they just got lazy and started doing what game companies and platforms are doing today, except 10-15 years early(but it was okay back then because it was Valve doing it). I just want to remember the good times, it helps that Steam isn't a steaming pile of shit like it's competitors(not to mention that it's easy to crack/pirate the stuff on there if you don't like paying).
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>>312695
>>312697
>>312702
Valve's involvement in Linux is largely an insurance measure against Windows getting shittier. When they first began messing around with porting their games to Linux, Microsoft's higher-ups apparently had zero plans of updating Direct3D at all and hoped to force all Windows programs onto the Windows 8 store. Seeing a major software distributor put actual resources into Linux supposedly scared them into boiling the frog a little slower. And now that Windows 11 is fully pajeetified and macOS is a centralized app verification nightmare, Valve has a fallback OS to ship games on which can run a large percentage of Windows vidya.
Sadly almost none of Valve's competition has had enough foresight to put any work into Windows compatibility layers, system programming, graphics drivers, or even store clients. They mostly just offer limited support for shipping Linux binaries of games at best, and waste time powerlessly whining about Microsoft's decisions. For all their pretenses of being Steam competition with principles, they just passively exist in a gaming landscape which Valve actively shapes. It's embarrassing to look at. Somehow the fucking CSGO gambling company is the only one of them with an actual self-preservation instinct, and that self-preservation instinct somehow single-handedly keeps a lot of current year tech bullshit from even more inescapable than it already is.
I hate that I know this. It's a ridiculously fragile situation in which a scary amount rests on a single company I don't like somehow having more brains than anyone else. That company is also so dysfunctional that it can barely even live out its original purpose of shipping games. If some seismic shift occurs to the PC gaming landscape occurs and Valve dies, a lack of a good replacement force in the system programming world (or some way of making the situation less fragile) could seriously mess things up.

This isn't a Valvedrone fellating the company. I'm just preoccupied with the question of how you make Valve unnecessary.

>fails to realize that a higher percentage of a small number is still a small number
IIRC Linuxfags end up being a disproportionately high percentage of buyers of games with native Linux ports. You also have to reminder that China massively throws off Steam's stats for everything because it's an absolutely massive bugman market.
>>312719
Yeah i know, but the update that was released a couple of years ago fixed many bugs like missing ambient,animations, L4D1 zombies etc. Also, L4D1 gun animations were ported too around that time.
Replies: >>312739
>>312734
GOG is going to fully support Linux and likely Proton soon, with a new GOG Galaxy client, finally.
Replies: >>312738
>>312737
I ain't installing that shit
>>312736
Left 4 Dead 1 has a more robust animation system on player movement, which I'm not sure why they axed in Left 4 Dead 2, and player ragdolls, which are amazing, different looking flashlight, among a bunch of other engine differences which make it unlikely anyone is going to bother taking the time to fully replicate it in the Left 4 Dead 2 engine.
I think Left 4 Dead is superior to its sequel in a couple ways, maybe even in performance, probably because there was less stuff hacked on, although having less special infected really changes the feeling of the game, and infinite shoves can be abused at times.

Also why would I go through the trouble of trying to set up Left 4 Dead 2 to be like Left 4 Dead when I can just play Left 4 Dead, aside from more maps.
>>312734
Moving off of Windows to a decentralized platform is a wise move because Microsoft has a vested interest in fucking everyone in the ass. They are competing against all the gaming services in the most anti-competitive way, by buying all the gaming properties and owning the operating system that all their competitors run on so they can present their service as the default and even make your computer nag you to use theirs and not the competition's. It's their lifelong business practice.
It's frankly shocking that only Valve is trying to move out of this shitshow.
>>312734
>self-preservation
Other game distributors didn't have effectively infinite money to waste on funding bedroom coders who may or may not have pulled through, and definitely didn't have an environment where the number of people you have to convince to get an apparent long shot like that greenlit can be counted on one finger.
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>>312734
If I were to hazard a guess for something that could safely offramp PC gaming from Valve, it would be OS-level appstore functionality,

Linux distros and other freetard OSs they've influenced have long had package managers as probably their most distinctive feature versus both Windows/Mac and earlier proprietary eunuchses. Some package managers now are cross-distro, cross-OS, or even capable of coexisting with other package managers. On top of that, there are crossplatform APIs like capable of handling special silly gaming profile stuff some people have become attached to since the XBox era (launcher, metaserver/matchmaking browser, skill rank, cheevos, cloud saves, etc.).

But the one thing missing is monetization. On freetard OSs, none of the package managers have store functionality, and all of the stores use their own package management. While on Windows/Mac/iOS/Android, the closest thing to a package manager is inseparable from MS/Apple/Google's store, with its exclusive ~30% cut, meaning all other stores instead replicate the entire 1-click un/installation/update mechanism that's a basic neutral part of the OS on Linux.

If a "store API" was separate from the actual stores in a neutral way, especially a multiplatform one extending across desktop and mobile, the UI for all stores would be unified in the same clients, and they could all use the same neutral OS APIs for package management and other non-monetary services, each store free from financial interference with each other or the platform provider.

This would provide the zero-friction experience necessary to make buying from different store practical for lazy normalfags, while also making OS maintainace and administration far less burdensome.
Replies: >>312762
>>312743
>Other game distributors didn't have effectively infinite money to waste on funding bedroom coders who may or may not have pulled through
From what I see, they are generally pretty wise with who they throw money at when it comes to this. They tend to be either established programmers (such as Ryan C Gordon or specific graphics driver developers), or people who begin promising projects which could become truly special if they are given enough time and financial incentive to focus exclusively on it (such as the DXVK guy).

>>312744
I've been thinking along similar lines, although that in and of itself doesn't solve the issue of the large vacuum which would be left if Valve's investment/self-insurance in system programming suddenly vanished.
Replies: >>312773
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>>312762
The dirty secret of open sores dev is that most of the usable code is contributed by faceless minions at megacorps with actual money on the line for real applications, while the masses of community devs mostly spin their wheels on idealistic solutions to imaginary problems, typically getting nothing of value done, which of course invites the striped socks brigade and their HR harpies to bog projects down with endless process and drama. The snail's pace of Wayland development is a particularly obvious example of this, where the project has wasted nearly 2 decades failing at what Apple (Quartz) and MS (DWM) did in 3 years, Valve has rammed through its Frog protocols to bypass the gaggle of dickering retards through sheer unilateral control over Linux Steam and SteamOS as a platform.
>Ryan C Gordon
Hahaha oh man does anybody else remember the FatELF saga? That's, like, the perfect specimen for loonicks dweebs being allergic to desirable features.

I think all that's really needed is someone, even just a bunch of someones, who cares about Linux desktop AT ALL with actual money on the line. Look at Linux server dev, and you'll notice all the WONTFIX faggotry stops real quick when there's somebody who needs a pull request upstreamed for their multimillion dollar use case.
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>>312773
Nice strawman but you know that "striped socks brigade"? Would be totally ignorable except for most of them are Red Hat employees.

Red Hat is responsible for almost every bad decision that took off in the Linux scene, especially desktop Linux. Wayland? Red Hat. Pulseaudio breaking your audio for 15 years? Red Hat. SystemD? Red Hat until a couple years ago. GNOME becoming increasingly unusable and infecting otherwise innocent GTK applications with shitty UX? Red Hat. Flathub? Red Hat. CoCsucking? Rammed through the kernel with the help of Greg shoah Koah-Hartmann, who works for Red Hat. You'd think if anyone cared about the desktop it would be them since workstation is technically one of their core products, but they just keep enshittifying.
Replies: >>312790
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>>312773
Kek, I actually wrote about a lot of that in an earlier version of the post you responded to, but figured it was getting too TL;DR for a late night post and deleted most of it. In general it seems like both most ways of monetizing proprietary software (outside singleplayer games with one-time purchases, oddly enough) and most methods of funding free software and permissively licensed software have some kind of odd perverse incentive built-in to enshittify the software. People from both sides fling shit at the other while ignoring that their own side has very similar issues, and often identical ones.
Also,
>open sores
That one always strikes me as badly thought-out because it implies the alternative is still a sore, just one that's been closed up. If it's been improperly treated, sometimes you gotta open that shit back up to work on it. The way the term is normally used implies the speaker is the kind of person who sweeps problems under the rug whenever possible and hates addressing them.
Replies: >>312790
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>>312775
I was referring primarily to hardhatted folks down in the mines using Linux/BSD/etc. for actual work who also contribute upstream, not humble pickaxe merchants like Red Hat. But even then
>You'd think if anyone cared about the desktop it would be them since workstation is technically one of their core products
LOL no, not in terms of what their Premier-tier premium paypigs care about. Look at any company using Linux or something like it for all their server infra and embedded firmware, which is most of them, and see what an individual engineer programming/maintaining/operating that actually has on their desk. They're basically all still on Windows, with their only interface to the Linux they're working on being webshit, a crosscompiler toolchain, or maybe SSH. Most of them have never seen a Linux DE session in their lives, many of them probably aren't aware such a thing exists. The situation is even grimmer in younger IT corps like Google, Meta, Amazon, or Netflix, where the majority of workstation sessions aren't mindless Windows sheeple, but fully indoctrinated Macfags. I wish it wasn't true, but literally nobody cares about the Linux desktop for strategic business reasons other than Valve.
>Would be totally ignorable except for most of them are Red Hat employees
Not really, they're white elephant staff/volunteer hotpockets autisming over irrelevant desktop shit, retained solely as a fig leaf for the fiction of a Linux "community" extending into desktop. Everything you mentioned is a worthless toy in the eyes of their actual paying customerbase, except somewhat in the case of
>SystemD
Has actual problems, such as its infamous feature creep (mitigated to some extent by forks like elogind), and typical Pooteringware implementation bugginess. But even on a purely theoretical level much of what grognards complain about are the things that actually make it a good idea, such as binary formats, native software in place of spaghetti scripts, and standardized IPC with D-Bus (something else I'm surprised you didn't list, since it also rankles the autism of grogs) instead of piping around opaque text streams. The anti-SystemD contrarians had numerous chances to fix the legacy crap themselves, such as SMC, Shepherd, & Initng. But instead, the best they've been willing to endorse is stupid shit like runit, OpenRC & Upstart that are just the same borked script soup with a dep resolver slapped on top.

>>312778
I think the universal principle is true or willful information asymmetry. Buy-to-own games have no externalities to hide, whereas libre software, SNS, GaaS, mobileshit/consoleshit walled gardens, etc., have massive hidden externalities behind their profitability like dumping/monopolization, whale milking and datamining. The only solution is probably more legislation to compel the most systemically transparent end-user pricing possible.
>That one always strikes me as badly thought-out
The analogy I usually see is to low quality "ethical" products, such as fruits and vegetables with literal open sores, accepted by customers with compromised quality standards. That's a bit too harsh in my eyes to both open source and other ethical products, but to me it means standards of quality must be upheld by consumers even when seeking higher ethical standards.
Replies: >>312804 >>312805
>>312790
>The anti-SystemD contrarians had numerous chances to fix the legacy crap themselves, such as SMC, Shepherd, & Initng. But instead, the best they've been willing to endorse is stupid shit like runit, OpenRC & Upstart that are just the same borked script soup with a dep resolver slapped on top.
The fact that you mentioned runit in the context of "script soup with a dep resolver" or invoked upstart at all is embarrassing. 
>The analogy I usually see is to low quality "ethical" products, such as fruits and vegetables with literal open sores, accepted by customers with compromised quality standards. That's a bit too harsh in my eyes to both open source and other ethical products, but to me it means standards of quality must be upheld by consumers even when seeking higher ethical standards.
If your meme needs repeated explanations that it's actually about fruit, it isn't very good. It's the mematic version of bad conceptual art that makes liberal women cry because they read the gallery blurb which explains that it's about the artist's gay lover dying of AIDS or something.
>>312790
uhmm does that image refer to this site?!?!?!?
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