/tech/ - Technology

Technology & Computing


New Reply[×]
Name
Sage
Subject
Message
Files Max 5 files32MB total
Tegaki
Password
Captcha*Select the solid/filled icons
[New Reply]


16color.jpg
[Hide] (65.5KB, 1022x1023)
 Discuss alternative OSes that are not Linux, Windows or Mac OSX. 
Also post your criticism of UNIX, Windows and Fag OSX design ITT.
If you want to discuss GNU/Linux distros, there is already a thread for it: >>>/tech/530
The package manager thread can be also useful: >>>/tech/4739


Some hastily written notes...
* everyone thinks UNIX (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0) is still the state-of-art. Ignorants praise Windows, not knowing it's originally a dumbed down clone of VMS that has some patches ported from OS/2 (https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest-story). Some say that Windows is also still mainly a single-user system that emulates a multi-user system. I think we are living Higurashi tier time loop when it comes to operating systems...
 (and CPUs: X86 is relic from the times of Vaxen. ARM, PowerPC/Power ISA, MIPS, RISC-V are more modern and better. Even modern X86 CPUs converts CISC to RISC in the microcode!)
* Plan9 (9front? Also, see plan9port and 9base), BeOS (Haiku) and TempleOS were the last innovative operating systems that I know of. Even the OSDev people imitate UNIX.
* It's awful that a misbehaving device driver can take down the whole system. Microkernels (e.g. MINIX, GNU Hurd, seL4) or muh """hybrid kernels""" (e.g. DragonFly BSD, Haiku, ReactOS I don't know if modern Windows has a hybrid kernel.) should be the norm. MINIX is incidentally perhaps the most used OS because ((( Intel ME ))) uses it as a basis for the CIAware that runs on our fucken CPUs!
* Nearly all criticism of UNIX is historic stuff: The UNIX-HATERS Handbook (https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf a joke), Multicians (https://www.multicians.org/) and LispM (http://fare.tunes.org/LispM.html) users...
* Worse is better or do the right thing? https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html & https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html
* Some modern UNIX-related innovations: 9p, DTrace, Solaris Zones & FreeBSD Jails, Nix & Guix...


User interfaces and GUIs
* #rC3 - What have we lost? https://invidious-us.kavin.rocks/watch?v=7RNbIEJvjUA&t=1m53s 
More vids...
< LispM (emulator): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
< Smalltalk (also, see Squeak and Pharo): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uknEhXyZgsg&t=830s & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_TXM0Jsglk & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLPiMl8XUKU
< Lucid Energize: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQQTScuApWk
< TempleOS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puDG7XAGy2M & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hCrl2wsz5c
Plan9's Acme is cool too: http://acme.cat-v.org/ & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP1xVpMPn8M & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knDN0jMLiAg
GNU Emacs and SLY/SLIME can also be a source of inspiration: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/debugging.html (also try Emacs' M-x customize)
Oberon Systems: https://web.archive.org/web/20191011164607/http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/

Links and instructions for running TempleOS using qemu can be found here: >>>/tech/934 & >>>/tech/4146


other stuff...=
Plan9 - Process Sleep and Wakeup on a Shared-memory Multiprocessor: http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sleep
Reposted from >>>/v/122313
---
>Plan9
Plan9 had some cool stuff http://9p.cat-v.org/ & http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/1/intro
but...
>the front fell off.

>criticism of UNIX
I also remembered the A fork() in the road paper: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2019/04/fork-hotos19.pdf (it's not like the windows' way is any better... see, CreateProcess() )
and this paste: https://gist.github.com/nicowilliams/a8a07b0fc75df05f684c23c18d7db234 ("fork() is evil; vfork() is goodness; afork() would be better; clone() is stupid")  P.S. vfork() sucks https://ewontfix.com/7/ Also, see rfork() of Plan9 and FreeBSD.
Also, like malloc(), fork() can fail: https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2014/08/19/fork/
---
1627336457188.jpg
[Hide] (1.5MB, 2560x1600)
I also have more detailed notes about various *BSD but they aren't ready yet,.,

Other operating systems
* TempleOS https://archive.org/download/TempleOS_ISO_Archive/TempleOSCDV4.13.ISO (not the latest version)
* Shrine https://github.com/minexew/Shrine
* ZenithOS https://github.com/ZenithOS/ZenithOS
* ZealOS https://github.com/Zeal-Operating-System/ZealOS
* ReactOS https://www.reactos.org
* ToaruOS https://github.com/klange/toaruos
* Haiku https://www.haiku-os.org
* GNU Hurd https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/
* Debian GNU/Hurd https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/
* illumos https://illumos.org
* OpenIndiana https://www.openindiana.org
* AROS http://www.aros.org
* MenuetOS http://menuetos.net/index.htm
* KolibriOS http://www.kolibrios.org/en/
* Genocide Genode https://genode.org
* MorphOS https://www.morphos-team.net
* Mezzano https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
* Visopsys https://visopsys.org
* PureDarwin http://www.puredarwin.org
* HelenOS https://github.com/HelenOS/helenos
* Redox OS https://www.redox-os.org
* FreeNOS https://github.com/nieklinnenbank/FreeNOS
* FreeDOS https://www.freedos.org (FreeDOS programming tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpKoh-AabTM&list=PLzuACU-W7Omo3VEnMKuM0IPupdOHFDzL3&index=1)
* MINIX https://www.minix3.org (very outdated programs. it isn't suitable for desktop use, except for x86 ring -3 rootkits)
* Xv6 https://github.com/mit-pdos/xv6-public and https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2020/xv6.html ("a simple Unix-like teaching operating system")
* helloSystem https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/ (A fork of FreeBSD that looks like Mac OSX)
* NetBSD https://netbsd.org/
* OpenBSD https://www.openbsd.org/
* DragonFly BSD https://www.dragonflybsd.org/

Avoid these
- FreeBSD (it sucks a CoC)
- 9front http://9front.org (it sucks a CoC, too. It has BLM banner on front page.)
- Plan 9 from Bell Labs https://9p.io/plan9/ (historic)
- ANTS ~ Advanced Namespace Tools for Plan 9 http://ants.9gridchan.org (it's dead because the maintainer cucked out)
- TrueOS (it's unstable and dead.)
- Microsoft Windows (it's a botnet)
- Fag OSX (unless you are FreeBSD developer) :^) 
- Fuchsia https://fuchsia.dev (Goolag)

Misc. stuff
* seL4 https://github.com/seL4/seL4
* EwoK https://github.com/wookey-project/ewok-kernel
* FreeRTOS https://www.freertos.org/index.html
* ChibiOS http://www.chibios.org
* The little book about OS development https://littleosbook.github.io
* Symbolics Lisp Machine (emulator) demo https://invidio.us/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
* Multics stuff: https://multicians.org
* OSDev wiki https://wiki.osdev.org/Main_Page
* Programming from the Ground Up https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/pgubook
* Nand to Tetris https://www.nand2tetris.org/
* Operating Systems: Three Easy Pieces https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/%7Eremzi/OSTEP/
* Operating Systems by William Stallings
* Modern Operating Systems by Andrew S. Tanenbaum
* The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System by Marshall Kirk McKusick, George V. Neville-Neil and Robert N.M. Watson
* (Historic) Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th Edition, with Source Code by John Lions
* (Historic) The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System
* More OpenBSD and BSD books: https://www.openbsd.org/books.html
* FreeBSD books: https://www.freebsd.org/docs/books/ & https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2022/02/04/books-about-freebsd/
* OpenBSD Presentations and Papers: https://www.openbsd.org/events.html
* FreeBSD Presentations and Papers: https://papers.freebsd.org/
* NetBSD Presentations: https://www.netbsd.org/gallery/presentations/
Inferno.gif
[Hide] (66.7KB, 800x600)
Allegedly this runs good (except the wifi) on DS Lite, which has only 4 MB RAM.  DSLinux doens't, unless you have the Opera browser cart with its 16 MB RAM expansion.
>>4969
It is important to note that most bsds are pozzed, there is a dragonbsd covid manpage, net/freebsd are the original tranny sjw vector. openbsd is the probably the only neutral one.
Replies: >>4973 >>4997
Haiku has a POSIX-y C programming interface, a (very incomplete) BSD compatibility library, and it uses copypasted code from some Linux C library, I forgot which, probably glibc.

I've ported programs to it, it's not hard. It's not incorrect to look at it as another unixy system from a programming standpoint.


One of the people behind the homebrew toolchains made an OS for the Nintendo DS: https://feos.mtheall.com/
>>4971
They're all trannied at the very minimum, for instance @solene at OpenBSD is a tranny.
And to finish this triple post, FreeBSD isn't a hacker project, it's a corporation. It has a career CEO on top and a board of directors.

As anyone in tech who has interacted with tech corporations knows, there's not a single one that isn't a cancer that must be destroyed, so that puts FreeBSD on the same level of cancer as Ubuntu or Mac OS.
Replies: >>5414
fortran_man_pt1.jpg
[Hide] (2.2MB, 2614x3300)
The thing is corporations control nearly everything, especially standards committees.  So short of doing hobbyist projects like TempleOS or CollapseOS where you write everything from scratch including the entire toolchain, then you're gonna be stuck with their influence.
Replies: >>4976 >>4981 >>5712
>>4975
corporations aren't necessary evil, the lack of competition caused by jews is
Replies: >>4978 >>4981
>>4976
They kinda are evil by their own nature of putting profits above all else.  Also they can basically live forever and hoard "IP" well past a human lifespan, which totally defeats the original purpose of copyright.
Replies: >>4979 >>5414
>>4978
Everyone put their profits above all else, by that standard everyone is evil. Corporations aren't even real, they live forever because it's just a name. "IP" is a government design, not corporation.
The focus on corporations or the "system" is a misdirection from the reality that power is always held by men. This misdirection is spread though all corporate medias. "Evil corps", wrong, evil men control those corps. Any entity can be evil if controlled by evil individuals.
Ted thinks computers are evil, he is wrong, people who control it are evil.
Replies: >>4980
>>4979
The point is corporations allow men to do evil things without any real consequences.  They can hide behind it, allow it to absorb all the flak and liability, then they get off scott free with their golden parachute, only to do the same thing again and again.
Replies: >>4987
You could also boot into a Lisp and use it as a basic OS: https://picolisp.com/wiki/?PilOS
More about PicoLisp: https://github.com/tj64/picolisp-by-example & https://github.com/tj64/picolisp-works & https://git.envs.net/mpech/tankf33der
uLisp could also work: http://www.ulisp.com/

>>4975
>CollapseOS
< small OS that designed to be used after a collapse (of supply lines). http://collapseos.org/why.html
< first version written in Z80 asm. Also, see http://www.z80.info
< the current version is written in Forth. Also, see https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/ & http://thinking-forth.sourceforge.net/ (also found a little review: http://verisimilitudes.net/2019-06-15 (also check out his Meta-Machine Code stuff)

>>4975
>>4976
In my opinion, most software should be FOSS: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html and follow the Seven Laws of Sane Personal Computing: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284
Replies: >>4987 >>4998 >>5712
>>4980
Yes, those people are protected by the law. But those people's friends or themselves made them. Therefore the only solution is minecraft-based.
>>4981
Agreed. It is similar to water and electricity. If there were enough competition for software freedom and companies (i.e. users are not retarded and take anything microshit up their asses), companies would races to libre software and innovations. Then most software would be FOSS, like cheap water supply. Even in the old days, unix came with all their sources. It doesn't even have to be FOSS, just every user have the source and the permission to change it is much better than what we have now.
>>4968 (OP) 
Contiki OS.
genderreveal.jpg
[Hide] (95KB, 960x740)
>>4971
https://man.netbsd.org/vax/covid.4
https://leaf.dragonflybsd.org/cgi/web-man?command=covid&section=ANY
Replies: >>4999
>>4981
https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
Looks kinda dead, but still, it's cool that it exists and maybe belongs here.
Replies: >>5000
ccc91d69b32c0e4a7565d8d1545b833c91f27e13af55a21352faeef2c3fa3341.png
[Hide] (719.1KB, 850x996)
>>4997
>Literal propaganda as manpages.
Tiresome.
>>4998
Mezzano is active, it just suffers from the usual hobby OS problem: Hardware is a tower of Babel so lmao0drivers.
Replies: >>5001
>>5000
A compatibility layer to use Linux drivers is the only possible solution if the custom os is designed for general bare metal installs.
Replies: >>5004 >>5004 >>5408
1635646322640-0.jpg
[Hide] (31.6KB, 500x500)
>>5003
>That's government.
Your interactions with corporations is voluntary. You can choose which competing corp, if any, to buy stuff from. But there is only one government and you have to give them your money (taxes) or you go to jail. So the potential for "evil" and corruption is much higher in government.

>>5001
>A compatibility layer to use Linux drivers is the only possible solution if the custom os is designed for general bare metal installs.
NetBSD had a project called rump kernels to run NetBSD drivers in userspace and theoretically make them reusable for other operating systems. I don't know how far along they got though.
reminder
/b/ exists
trashchan/finance/ exists
>>4969
OpenBSD
+ The default installation is secure. OpenBSD has many interesting security features, for example, pledge(2) and unveil(2) 
+ The developers are committed to developing their OS
+ OpenBSD's sister projects like mandoc, OpenSSH and LibreSSl are cool
+ sndio sound server
+ pf firewall
+ Well-written man-pages and FAQs. Also, see afterboot(8)
+ Theo de Raadt is based
+ OpenBSD doesn't have Bluetooth support anymore
+/- Its developers and users expect you to at least try to fix the problem yourself before they will help you. You get replies quickly on the mailing-lists. #openbsd IRC channel is active, too.
+/- OpenBSD uses cvs and patches for development (there is now a read-only git mirror)

notes and resources
* https://www.openbsd.org/
* OpenBSD Journal: https://undeadly.org
* OpenBSD zine: https://webzine.puffy.cafe/
* Unofficial OpenBSD quick start: https://www.openbsdjumpstart.org
* ...Another: https://www.c0ffee.net/blog/openbsd-on-a-laptop
* Default package management: OpenBSD's ports and pkg_* tools.
* The OpenBSD FAQ (the installation guide): https://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html
* tl;dr you can use pkg_info -Q foobar to find a package and pkg_add foobar to install it. Use pkg_add -u to upgrade the installed packages. 
* If you want, you can install the standard GNU tools: pkg_add coreutils
* If you wish to run X11 (xenocara) you may want to also enable automatic starting of OpenBSD's DM (xenodm) during the installation.
* You should install all file sets during the installation if you are unsure.
* If you have (created) a (MBR or GPT) partition with OpenBSD's partition type (A6) then OpenBSD's installer will recognize it and ask whether you want to install to that partition.
* OpenBSD gaming resource: https://mrsatterly.com/openbsd_games.html
* A quick rundown of OpenBSD's security features: https://www.openbsd.org/security.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBSD_security_features
* You can install non-free firmware using the fw_update(1) tool. Its man-page is self-explanatory.
* You can install patches with syspatch(8). Its man-page is self-explanatory.
* You can upgrade to the next release by using the sysupgrade(8) utility. Also check out sysmerge(8).
* The binary packages are also getting updates on the latest "stable" release.
* If you want to install pkgsrc on OpenBSD, install pkgsrc into your home directory (use ./bootstrap --unprivileged) Or define a different prefix for pkgsrc (or at least make backups of the original pkg_add, pkg_delete, pkg_info and pkg_check binaries)
* I got pkgsrc working on OpenBSD 6.3 by running the following command: ./bootstrap --compiler clang --unprivileged --prefer-pkgsrc=openssl
* When you are creating disk partitions, you can specify a partition's size in (for example) gigabytes, by appending G to the desired size (for example, 42G means 42 gigabytes). also read: disklabel(8) fdisk(8) newfs(8)
* sysctl hw.disknames is handy
* You can browse OpenBSD's ports here: http://ports.su or https://openports.se
* OpenBSD has a good support for ThinkPads.
* OpenBSD uses doas instead of sudo. doas is very nice, but it needs to be configured first. it's easy as pie, see man 5 doas.conf
* AMDGPU was added to the kernel in release 6.6
* There is a 3rd-party utility called openup that can be used to upgrade both ports and the base system. You can read more about it here: https://www.mtier.org/solutions/apps/openup/

To update ports:
First fetch/update the ports tree (either by using cvs or by fetching a snapshot) Read https://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/ports.html and https://man.openbsd.org/ports
possible language: bash, relevance: 28
# if you don't want to run cvs as root
user mod -G wsrc lain
user mod -G staff lain
# You could also increase the resource limits in /etc/login.conf and sysctl kern.maxfiles

# get the initial ports tree
cd /tmp
ftp https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/$(uname -r)/{ports.tar.gz,SHA256.sig}
signify -Cp /etc/signify/openbsd-$(uname -r | cut -c 1,3)-base.pub -x SHA256.sig ports.tar.gz
cd /usr
tar xzf /tmp/ports.tar.gz

# pick a mirror from https://www.openbsd.org/anoncvs.html (bottom of the page)
cvs -qd [email protected]:/cvs checkout -rOPENBSD_7_1 -P ports

# to update the ports from now on:
# cvs -q up -P ports -d -rOPENBSD_7_1

cd /usr/ports
cd lang/chicken
make install
make clean

NetBSD
+ It supports many CPU architectures: "Of course it runs NetBSD!"
+ lua-scriptable kernel (I think this is great for prototyping. You can find some presentations/PDFs here: https://www.netbsd.org/gallery/presentations/)
+ rump kernels, see https://wiki.netbsd.org/rumpkernel/
+ NetBSD has audio mixer built into the kernel
+ NPF firewall
+ dtrace
+ ZFS support (N.B. As of NetBSD 9.1, booting from ZFS or using ZFS for root is not supported yet...)
+ afterboot(8) man-page
+/- The system is traditional...
+/- ...but NetBSD also has some experimental features, however

notes and resources
* https://netbsd.org
* Default package management: pkg_* tools and pkgsrc
* The NetBSD Guide: https://netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/index.html
* Remember to use the installer's configuration menu to install the package manager and enable installation of binary packages
* What NetBSD is referring to as a "port" is actually an "(CPU) architecture".
* In addition to the cvs repo, NetBSD also provides official Mercurial (hg) mirror (which is read-only?)
Replies: >>5389
green_is_my_pepper.png
[Hide] (141.2KB, 900x1349)
>>5388
DragonFly BSD
+ Has the best multi-core/multi-thread performance. (at least on *BSD)
+ Has the best file system (HAMMER and HAMMER2) ZFS is overengineered and BTRFS is not only overengineered but also, in the past (?), it wasn't as stable as one would hope.
+ jails
+ vkernels
+ Matthew Dillon is based
+/- Uses git for development (instead of cvs)
? Dragonfly BSD has smaller community than OpenBSD and NetBSD
+/? Perhaps Ravenports will one day be the default.

notes and resources
* https://www.dragonflybsd.org
* DragonFly Digest: https://www.dragonflydigest.com
* Default package management: pkg (for binary packages) and dports (https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/howtos/HowToDPorts/) Has a lot of packages (Dports = FreeBSD ports + DragonFly BSD specific patches)
* Dragonfly BSD Handbook: https://www.dragonflybsd.org/docs/handbook/
* Press SCROLL LOCK to enable/disable scrolling the console with arrow keys
* If you want to install pkgsrc, you should do an unprivileged installation under your own home direcory; see the relevant parts under OpenBSD's and pkgsrc's sections.

HardenedBSD
(contributed by Anon)
http://lkiw4tmbudbr43hbyhm636sarn73vuow77czzohdbqdpjuq3vdzvenyd.onion/
+ Website, repos and packages available over hidden services.
+ grsecurity for FreeBSD
+ LibreSSL
+ Port building systems (ports-mgmt/poudriere and ports-mgmt/synth)
+ Has the fastest package manager available on BSDs (pkgng)
+ jails
+ Can run wine and use linux filesystems
+ Has the best UFS2 implementation (idk why)
+ OSS4
+ Hardware support on par with FreeBSD
- amd64 only
- Ports aren't as patched as the OBSD ones


pkgsrc
(FYI, there is also Ravenports: http://www.ravenports.com/ & https://github.com/jrmarino/Ravenports/wiki/Ravenusers_Guide)
Many other operating systems support pkgsrc.

The TL;DR version of getting pkgsrc working on operating systems other than NetBSD is:
Download the stable branch tarball from https://www.pkgsrc.org/
Unpack it.
possible language: bash, relevance: 13
cd pkgsrc/bootstrap
./bootstrap [--unprivileged]
# Prefer installing pkgsrc under your $HOME, unless you want to install daemons.

# After running the bootstrap script, cd ..
# To install something:
# bmake is the NetBSD make.
cd lang/racket
bmake readme
bmake
bmake install

General tips and resources
* pkgsrc guide: https://www.netbsd.org/docs/pkgsrc/
* An introduction to pkgsrc (pls note that DragonFly BSD doesn't use pkgsrc as its default package manager anymore): https://invidio.us/watch?v=t6vlmJ84BSI&t=4m35s
* A beginner's guide to PF: http://srobb.net/pf.html
* Before installation, use something like gparted to resize an existing partition and/or create a new partition for your *BSD installation.
* BSD utilities can behave differently (and have different command-line switches) than the utilities provided by GNU.
* You probably want to use the korn shell (ksh)
* Remember to check info-pages in addition to man-pages. The info-pages of GNU programs are usually more comprehensive than their man-pages counterparts.
* What *BSD is referring to as "slice" is what most other operating systems refer to as "partition". In *BSD, slices contains smaller parts, called "partitions".
* If you don't know which software sets to install, choose all of them.
* Don't assume that *BSD has GNU programs installed by default or that *BSD utilities work the same way as their GNU counterparts

GRUB MBR/UEFI Multi-booting example for OpenBSD/NetBSD
* If you need to reinstall the bootloader (aka "bootblocks"), you can spawn a shell using the install medium and mount the OpenBSD disk on /mnt and chroot /mnt and then just use installboot(8)
* after installing the bootblocks (in UEFI ESP partition), reboot into GNU/Linux.
* check that you have the OpenBSD's *.efi files in your EFI System Partition (the dir that OpenBSD's installboot created is named "boot" by default. you could rename it as "OpenBSD")
* copy /etc/grub.d/custom_40 as /etc/grub.d/custom_42
* create following file in /etc/grub.d/custom_42 (and then generate a new grub.cfg like usual)
* It's recommended to take a look at GRUB2's manual and the man-pages for fdisk(8) and boot(8) (N.B. the fdisk is a bit different to what you might be used to!)
possible language: bash, relevance: 23
menuentry "OpenBSD" {
    insmod part_bsd
    insmod part_gpt
    insmod part_msdos
    insmod chain
    # UEFI
    set root='hd0,gpt1' #This should be EFI ESP partition for UEFI systems
    chainloader (${root})/EFI/OpenBSD/bootia64.efi
    
    # instead, write these 2 lines for BIOS MBR systems
    set root='hd0,msdos3'   # this is OpenBSD's MBR partition.
    chainloader +1          # this works for NetBSD, too
    
    # N.B. chainloading is the recommended method. For a good reason!
    
    # Wanna use GRUB without chainloading?
    # instead of chainloading, you can also try something like this:
    #kopenbsd (${root})/bsd
    # just FYI, to boot NetBSD, you can also
    #knetbsd /netbsd
}
Replies: >>5409
>>5001
This reduces to reimplementing most of Linux. The Linux driver stack is outright gnarly and a lot of Linux drivers are outrageously shit. It also means you can't stray too far from a Unix design.
>>5389
>+ Matthew Dillon is based
https://man.dragonflybsd.org/?command=covid
>Xlibe - An Xlib compatibility layer implemented on top of the Haiku API, in order to run X11 applications on Haiku without an X server.
https://github.com/waddlesplash/xlibe
Replies: >>5424
>>4974
Anything above a hobbyOS is going to be a corporation of some form. The main difference being an OS with a non-profit corporate entity to handle accounting/legal issues vs something like Redhat or Moziila who are definitively in the "big tech" sphere. There are also a few OS that are essentially small business with a BDFL, and they tend to be good, as long as the lead is a sane person.

>>4978
>profits above all else
<profits are quantified in money
<who controls the money?
<aiming the magic money machine at it, will inevitably lead to controlling it.
>>5411
I'm more interested in knowing if Haiku's GUI architecture doesn't suck as much as all the others. But I'm not willing to touch C++ nor interested in GUIs enough to look it up.
Replies: >>5426
>>5424
>not willing to touch C++
Planning a new project, what do you have against C++?
Replies: >>5428 >>5435 >>5437
>>5426
Piles upon piles of useless abstractions and every single language feature the designers could think of with no rhyme or reason.
A good programming language is a language that tries to maximize expressive power from the least primitives possible and achieves the best performance possible while doing so. C++ fails terribly at it.
Replies: >>5430
>>5428
>maximize expressive power from the least primitives possible
What do you mean by this? Does it mean a keyword does a lot?
Replies: >>5434
>>5430
It means how much you can express with how few language features.

In LISP for instance, you can declare a function that allocates storage and returns a function that uses this storage, the storage doesn't have a name outside the returned function. The only primitive it uses for that is function declaration, which happens to be used to implement variable declarations.

In C, it's impossible, you need to declare a function and make the buffer a parameter, then you need to pass the right buffer every call. You could use a static variable inside the function but that's not thread safe and the storage would be allocated during the program's whole life, and you could use thread local storage, but it would cap the amount of distinct uses of the function within a thread to 1 in addition to still occupying memory when the function isn't in use. You need a function declaration, a variable declaration, and probably to allocate some memory, then you need to pass the storage in every call.

The LISP languages have the best expressive power in general. C is middling. Of course, C is also several times faster than LISP, so you have a tradeoff here, but both are in pretty good places.

Additionally, libraries don't really count for expressive power, you can have a library in any language. Expressive power is about how varied, good, and easy to use the semantics a language provides are. You can increase expressive power by adding more features to the language, but that's not free, that's why part of good language design is maximizing expressive power while having the least features. Just like you can make a car engine more powerful by making it bigger, but progress in engine design (at least as far as power goes) is to make an engine of the same size with more horsepower.

I don't know why, but the people behind modern languages (and modern includes C++ given how much it changes over the years) seem to not think about this at all and simply tack all the features on, make a huge standard library and call it a day. At least the people behind C worked hard on providing conveniences that can be implemented very efficiently in machine code, and the LISP people worked hard on expressive power, they actually tried to design good languages with different goals. And then you have Python: Python is not more expressive than LISP, achieves this lesser expressive power by having many more times more features, and it's also extremely inefficient in general, so one really has to wonder why use it over something else.
Replies: >>5441
>>5426
>what do you have against C++?
It's easier to pretend a language is bad than to admit you are too dumb/lazy to learn it properly. That's why he doesn't want you to use it either, everyone who successfully uses C++ is living proof of his incompetence.
Replies: >>5438
>>5426
C++ is too complex.
There are the old bad ways of doing X and the newer good ways. This includes simple thing like initializing a variable. The biggest benefit of C++ over C are that C stdlib is too small and doing anything with C strings is painful.
>>5435
Computers were made for doing the work for you, not vice versa. If you're memorizing 1300 pages of useless trivia in the vein of "X has these corner cases as a workaround for Y which was designed 10 years ago as a workaround for Z which was designed 20 years ago and turned out to be a mistake but seemed cool at the time", you are missing the point, hard. You aren't more hardcore for wasting your time.
Replies: >>5441 >>5460
>>5438
I disagree, programmers should understand the reality of what they are programming. Languages should model the processor closely. You can say memorizing shit to fix edge cases is fixing old problems, but those problems exists in the processor that is running your code right now. It is not different from a wood carver knowing the properties of the piece of wood he is working on and adjust his work accordingly.
>>5434
Do you mean brevity? In your example, there is a certain syntactical  beauty in your lisp example. Not sure if I get what you mean. If you want multiple calls to the same function and have the buffer to be gone after the function returns.
language: c
void some_function() {
        buffer_object buf; //if buf is small
        buffer_object *hbuf = malloc(sizeof(*hbuf)); //if buf is big
        free(hbuf);
}
This is thread safe, the memory is freed after execution. You can call it multiple times in the same thread.
Replies: >>5444 >>5458
>>5441
No, not brevity. Brevity would be how short program text is. That is not so important until you have those hueg 30+ character identifiers like the Java people seem to love, or perhaps how Pascal once put types and identifiers in the same namespace and you couldn't declare a variable of type "counter" with the name "counter," you had to create a type "Tcounter," so the language forced you to memorize a style and type one more character than a different language would for something many want to do, although the Pascal case isn't something to use a different language over.

I'm talking about how much you can express with how few language features.
As present in the Scheme standards:
>Programming languages should be designed not by piling feature on top of feature, but by removing the weaknesses and restrictions that make additional features appear necessary.
This is one half of where modern languages fail, it's okay (and necessary) to have the language provide you conveniences for expressing whatever you want in a clear, simple manner. However, one language is clearly better than another when it manages to do a task as well as a different language but with less baggage. If you fail hard at it enough, you have a huge language like C++ which isn't a convenient language despite its extreme amount of abstractions and features. The abstractions and features distance it from machine code and have caveats the programmer has to mind, slowing programs down and being inconvenient rather than convenient.

Progress in programming languages would be improving an algorithm that is baked into the language, like list traversal in LISP or the zero-terminated strings in C. Improve the algorithm, and the language performs better with no loss in convenience or expressive power.
Progress would also be removing the cruft, like the register, restrict, and inline keywords in C. Remove them and C retains the same performance and expressive power, but with 3 less features for C programmers to occupy their minds with.
Progress would also be coming up with a way to allow programmers to express themselves better. C doesn't have multiple return values, so we use errno, or overload a return value to both signal error and return results like the return values of printf() and malloc(). C itself already finds a way to return multiple return values even if it lacks the syntax, so adding a more friendly syntax  for multiple return values would be a logical improvement. That would probably mean returning values in 2 registers instead of 1 in many cases, so you could say it comes with a performance penalty, but consider it's no worse than using errno and better than returning values through a pointer parameter. Do that, and you gain convenience, with no loss in performance and without truly having added another feature for people to think about.

>the C example
Yes, that would be the C way to do it. Now you have to mind whether you want to pass the address of an object with auto storage duration, or whether you want to call the allocation function, check its return value, pass the pointer, and remember to free it.

LISP sacrifices performance for convenience by having a garbage collector and a single storage duration.

This is why I say that C and LISP are both worth using, but for different reasons. LISP is convenient and of middling performance, C is fast and of middling convenience.

If you take the average of a language A's qualities and it's clearly higher than language B, then there's not much reason to use language B. I can't tell which of C or LISP is better, so either is fine. I can tell Python, C++, and Rust are trash, so it's better to not touch them because they're regressive languages which produce programs that are buggier and/or slower. Let them be buried with COBOL and FORTRAN.
Replies: >>5453 >>5457
>>5444
I should spend more time with lisp to understand its expressive power. Otherwise I can't find fault with what you said.
Practically, how do you deal with C++ and python having a ton more libraries? I want to use a good language, but I want to see some results now. For example, boost makes a powerful argument for Cpp. One part of my program implements a server/client with a custom protocol, I can get my hands dirty with epoll and socket code, but asio had that done for me. (Although learning the Cpp features and the way to use asio takes way too much time)
Replies: >>5455 >>5457
>>5453
>Although learning the Cpp features and the way to use asio takes way too much time
I think that's anon's point. Libraries are just code, and having code done for you doesn't make the language better. 
It's like having to choose between completing a 99% done assembly code or doing it from scratch with C. Sure it might be easier to complete the assembly code, but that's not because of inherent properties of the language. Even within that code you're going to be fucked the second you have to modify something within the library or try to implement something extra.
Replies: >>5456
>>5455
>you're going to be fucked the second you have to modify something within the library or try to implement something extra
Fuck man, are you me? The boost reference docs didn't make it clear how to implement a custom protocol. There are examples and shit but I want to write something right now instead of fucking around for yet another night trying to understand it. I may as well do it again in C, at least I just need to learn posix api.
fpwtf.png
[Hide] (431.9KB, 2436x1626)
>>5453
>>5444
Speaking of Lisp, what the fuck is wrong with functional language documentation. I've seen at least three different languages that just give you an alphanumerically sorted list of symbols and tell you to go fuck yourself. Compare with C and other languages which nearly always have categorically structured sections. I've tried to learn the "core" of Common Lisp multiple times but I've never found a simple piece of documentation that organizes symbols into LISTS, FILES, ARITHMETIC, ETC.
Replies: >>5459 >>5465
>>5441
Please point me to the part of the machine's reality that is reflected by std::launder.
>>5457
Have you considered actually reading the book whose symbol index you screenshotted? CLtL does exactly what you're asking for.
Replies: >>5465
>>5438
If low level/high performance languages like C and C++ were a waste of time there wouldn't be so many high paying jobs.

>you are missing the point, hard.
Right back at you kiddo. Not everyone is a hobbyist.
Replies: >>5462
>>5460
Have you somehow missed how C++ jobs have dropped hard for the better part of two decades? Not that this is any kind of argument to begin with, by that logic PHP and Cobol are good.
>Right back at you kiddo. Not everyone is a hobbyist.
If anything, it'd be the hobbyists who wouldn't mind a waste of time. Stop thinking in thought terminators you niggercattle.
Replies: >>5463
>>5462
>Have you somehow missed how C++ jobs have dropped hard for the better part of two decades?
You said C is a waste of time. If that's true then nobody would be paid to write it. So clearly the people who are paying for new C code know something you don't.

>If anything, it'd be the hobbyists who wouldn't mind a waste of time.
It's the hobbyists who don't have to worry about things like performance, latency, power consumption, ram usage, code space etc. When your only objective is to get something working, anything more complicated than that seems like a waste of time. Your mistake was projecting that hobbyist mentality onto everyone else.

>by that logic PHP and Cobol are good.
Have you actually looked at any data or are you just talking out of your ass?
C Jobs New York -  4248 | https://www.indeed.com/q-C-l-New-York,-NY-jobs.html
PHP Jobs New York -   938 | https://www.indeed.com/q-PHP-l-New-York,-NY-jobs.html
Cobol Jobs New York - 126 | https://www.indeed.com/q-Cobol-l-New-York,-NY-jobs.html
Replies: >>5464 >>5466
>>5463
Formatting faggorty https://www.indeed.com/q-C++-l-New-York,-NY-jobs.html
>>5457
Racket and Chicken Scheme have good docs:
>https://docs.racket-lang.org/index.html
>https://wiki.call-cc.org/man/5/The%20User%27s%20Manual & https://api.call-cc.org/5/doc/ & https://wiki.call-cc.org/tutorials


Common Lisp has the Hyperspec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ (also https://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/getting-started-with-the-clhs/) But I think you really should use Emacs+SLY to look up documentation from the Hyperspec: M-x sly-hyperspec-lookup (https://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#Documentation)
Also try APROPOS and ´DESCRIBE`

> I've tried to learn the "core" of Common Lisp multiple times 
If you want a tutorial, read a book that written as one:
https://gigamonkeys.com/book/
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/

There is also:
>Cookbook: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/
>http://weitz.de/cl-recipes/
>Wiki https://www.cliki.net/ 
>Quickdocs: https://quickdocs.org/
>Awesome list: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl

>>5459
>CLtL2
>https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html
this.
>>5463
Do you think Search Engine Optimization is a legit field because idiots pay for it? Is an industry incapable of wasteful behavior on your planet? What the fuck already. A ton of Sepples jobs have very little technical reason to be in Sepples, it's largely maintenance of legacy shit from back when Sepples was the most popular language (which Microsoft had a major hand in) or an attempt to access a larger developer pool (game developers famously do this). Maybe you should read the job listings you posted. I know you haven't because the C++ one lists fucking tech support jobs and a Ruby on Rails position.
>Have you actually looked at any data or are you just talking out of your ass?
Do you know how popular PHP used to be? How hard it dropped off, and why it dropped off so hard? Hell, do you even know what Cobol is? The point is that popularity and compensation have nothing to do with quality or wasting your time by creating unnecessary work.

Stop getting your panties in a twist because someone didn't fellate your languagefu on an anonymous imageboard, holy shit, man. You'd think I insulted your mother with how you react.
Replies: >>5469
>>5466
>Do you think Search Engine Optimization is a legit field because idiots pay for it?
Irrelevant. If C++ is a useless language then thousands of profit seeking companies would not waste money paying people to use it.

>Is an industry incapable of wasteful behavior on your planet?
Wasteful behavior is punished by lower profits.

>it's largely maintenance of legacy shit from back when C++ was the most popular language
The existence of C11, 14, 17, 20, 23 is proof that C is used for new projects all the time.

>The point is that popularity and compensation have nothing to do with quality or wasting your time by creating unnecessary work.
You're saying that cobol is a bad language by 2022 standards but it was popular in 1962 therefor there is no correlation between popularity and quality? That is a completely illogical argument.

>Stop getting your panties in a twist because someone didn't fellate your languagefu on an anonymous imageboard, holy shit, man. You'd think I insulted your mother with how you react.
Stop projecting. I've been nothing but polite and objective in our discussion.
privacy.jpg
[Hide] (390.1KB, 1363x1080)
>>4968 (OP) 
>>4969
What do you guys think of using OpenBSD as a daily driver? Games aren't that much of a concern to me since I mostly only play retro games and Free Software games.
Replies: >>5555 >>5560
>>5551
There are a few problems I have experienced, but I can live with them or fix them.
>default partition scheme leaves little space for compiling ports and installing programs
>no palemoon, but that's caused by furniggers freaking out
>slow, about 50% slower than linux in my experience
>>5551
I run it. 
I primarily pirate, read, watch anime, and program.

Easily the best C library in terms of API design, the binary size is poor but the performance is good, the malloc is original and one of the best. The kernel is pretty slow. FDE is easy to use and works well unlike every other OS except FreeBSD. Some programs are """"portable"""" but they don't work well outside their main platform(s) like aria2c, firefox, and mpv-that means they don't work well on OpenBSD. Its hardening features tend to make C undefined behavior crash which is nice for finding bugs in programs, also the task scheduler is randomized which exposes race conditions in multithreaded software. It's the only OS with sane defaults. Many tasks trigger global kernel locks which you notice because the entire OS freezes for a few milliseconds, funnily not an issue on non-mp kernels. Every original OpenBSD program is extremely pleasant to use and works extremely well, unfortunately lots of important system components like the X server aren't original (although their forks are still better than the originals). The documentation is the best of any Unix.
>>4975
>>4981
>CollapseOS
There is a similar project, called Dusk OS: https://git.sr.ht/~vdupras/duskos
fb08cb3fc9b5c37bb3be91b246f3aa968f9afd6d8beedab9a9b335cef9ddf2b5.jpg
[Hide] (267.5KB, 850x1198)
lol imagine being such a wigger that you have your own idea of what a privacy LARPer is while being a privacy LARPer
wigger privacy LARPer:
>CLI crap
>UN*X
>firefox plugins (noscript, umatrix, ublock, tree style tabs [lmao enjoy your lag])
>some fucktarded setups with DNS, X.509, e-mail, IRC
>afraid to type in his console because it might execute commands from the internet or wipe his disk
hapa chad privacy enjoyer
>has own OS
>has own game that doesnt report your hardware registers over the internet [lol no lag unlike wigger games]
>uses a console induced from a programming language instead of bash horseshit
>has web replacement
>kills penguins and nobody cant do naythan
>>4969
<FreeDOS
> Website: https://freedos.org/
> Learn C programming in FreeDOS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpKoh-AabTM&list=PLzuACU-W7Omo3VEnMKuM0IPupdOHFDzL3&index=1
> How to create a packge?: http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/Package

To test FreeDOS, simply use QEMU/VirtualBox to create a DOS VM. Give it 500MB-4GB of HDD space and some amount of RAM (like 64MB or more). If possible, use the VM settings to reduce the CPU % to 40% because some buggy programs might consume 100% of CPU. Boot the LiveCD, and type SETUP.BAT (use TAB-completion). Install FreeDOS and reboot without removing the CD. After the reboot, you can use FDIMPLES to install packages from the CD (Pro Tip: the bonus CD contains more packages. the CD gets auto-detected). You can also use FDNPKG to fetch packages from Internet (FreeDOS has TCP/IP networking). Use HELP and APROPOS to find new commands. You can use F1 to get help in programs and use ESC to quit.
Imagine an operating system that allowed unlimited linking between any files or parts of files, renaming and reorganizing the files with no broken links, no restrictions on file naming, multiple names for the same file, the same document (or part of one) can be in many places at the same time, every word in every file is constantly indexed (including spoken and sung words). Viruses are a distant memory. The limits of our imaginations will be the limits of our software.

https://hyperworlds.org/futureos.html
Replies: >>6715 >>7480
>>6713
I skimmed it. It's interesting. If everything is a pointer, where is the actual data stored? What if machines go down?
Replies: >>7480
>>6713
>>6715
One thing I've been thinking about is if something like IPFS was the filesystem. Forget about performance or whether it even works because IPFS sucks on both, just assume it works and performs decently.

You could have all the programs "installed" all the time, their executables always listed in the /bin directory and so on, but not actually on disk. Then when you run the program and its executable isn't on disk, the filesystem fetches it from the internet and stores it in the disk completely transparently. No package manager. No installation. As long as you have free space, the program and its data files aren't redownloaded. When you need space, the filesystem garbage collects less used files. All programs integrate with this, your music library is just a bunch of pointers to FLACs in our version of IPFS, and as always, if you have space on disk, it plays from disk, if you don't, it fetches it from the internet and puts it in your disk where it stays until a future lack of space leads to the files being garbage collected; your web browser fetches everything from IPFS, OS upgrades just change the hashes the system's files point to and handle migrating the programs that are currently on memory like MINIX. Everything is safe because files are addressed by hash. You can even have personal storage, just encrypt files before publishing them, all done transparently and not manually of course.

Something like that would be so cool, but it needs to perform, it needs to have a mechanism to prevent individual computers from cheating and stealing the world's free disk space, it needs to be free of copyright and DRM bullshit, but it sounds better than what we have now.
Replies: >>7529
ClipboardImage.png
[Hide] (347KB, 451x619)
>>4969
>Avoid these
>(...)
>- Microsoft Windows (it's a botnet)
What did he mean by this?
Replies: >>7507
Pliant language and FullPliant operating system
"FullPliant is a complete system written from scratch in Pliant, that relies mostly on no external code except the kernel, provides install and administration tools, various servers (database, web, mail, dns, etc), graphic stack, and fits in less that 200 000 lines of code, including Pliant dynamic compiler."
https://www.fullpliant.org/

>>7495
It's proprietary software and it collects data. Free software is objectively better. You should use FOSS, if you can use it to accomplish everything you need to do. If you still require proprietary software for some tasks, you should dual-boot M$ Windows and GNU/Linux (or a *BSD). Alternatively, you can use Wine or you can use a VM (and put the proprietary software in a ghetto).

To learn more:
>https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html
>http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284
>https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-even-more-important.html
>https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html
And if you are an auditory learner, you should watch this video: https://invidious.kavin.rocks/watch?v=9sJUDx7iEJw
>>7480
The current filesystems are a product of hardware. There is a physical limitation with cache locality, even the fastest data center have ram since ram is orders of speed higher than network.
Replies: >>9047
Fuck I wish alot of these operating systems listed had way more support. Other than BSD, good like trying to run a VM on any other alternatives...
>>7529
The spectrum of cache locality cannot be understated, with normal on-board RAM being a great midpoint on the spectrum.  Big-O notation is all well and good, but cache locality can dominate tractability quite easily if it's swamped by the need to exit CPU cache all the time, or, god forbid hit an SSD array before and HDD array, go over the network, or even have to fetch from deeper storage for the rare case more often than it has to.
>anon how did you make this part that takes all week finish in under an hour or sometimes minutes
>well you see if you do the whole O(M*N) matrix at once then where you started drops out of the cache before you get back around to the next row
>so if you do it one tile at a time then it sits in the cache
>yeah that's even before it started swapping out because you were trying to hold the whole thing in RAM at once
>oh yeah and  it's actually O(M*N*Q*R) and the reason it kept failing out after a week is zipf's law
>so just put a limit on Q and R and discard the pathological cases, which you can see are nonsensical anyway, and now it's not dominated by N^4 behavior anyway
Smart people are smart, but if you never look at what's actually going on under the hood then it's easy to be optimizing for the wrong problem.
Lol, FreeBSD only got ASLR in 2022: https://wiki.freebsd.org/AddressSpaceLayoutRandomization
Replies: >>9287
81.jpg
[Hide] (50.9KB, 523x927)
>>9170

Don't even bother with it. I personally dont use  the *BSDs, due to the lack of support for certain virtualization software (virtualbox, and vmware)  but I would roll a nice OpenBSD or NetBSD install.
Replies: >>9292 >>9296
>>9287
>due to the lack of support for certain virtualization software (virtualbox
virtualbox-ose-6.1.36
Name           : virtualbox-ose
Version        : 6.1.36
Origin         : emulators/virtualbox-ose
Replies: >>9322
I use gnu/linux
>>9287
Yeah, I've autistically installed and used all the BSDs and a bunch of Linux distros to experiment, and FreeBSD is the worst BSD by far. NetBSD and OpenBSD are quite good.

FreeBSD also made RDRAND the only source of randomness at Intel's suggestion for a while.
Replies: >>9331
>>9292
 I tried it. Couldnt even get the extensions running on it properly. This was my experience with FreeBSD, and all the sources I read were throwing bhyve at me as the go to alternative since its the native hypervisor thats directly supported by the kernel. Tried it too, as an alternative (since I can) and cringed at how VNC was needed to run an actual winbloat vm. I need it for work, a full dev environment for desktop apps on winshit. Will definitely have to try this version of virtualbox with either Open/NetBSD, because from the last time read support was faint..
>>9296
>FreeBSD also made RDRAND the only source of randomness at Intel's suggestion for a while.
Was that before or after they broken their RNG and nobody noticed for 4 months?
https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2015-February/054580.html
beastie.png
[Hide] (10.5KB, 178x196)
cropcircle.jpg
[Hide] (92.3KB, 600x912)
Think FreeBSD would be worth using for Blender because it's got official NVIDIA drivers? Or just go AMD on NetBSD/OpenBSD? Want to stop bouncing around and more intimately familiarize myself with a single OS. Going to be stuck learning on Blender 2.79b for now (Intel GMA). Considering the future. I'll get a PC if I like doing 3DCGI, if not I'll be done with it all.
Replies: >>12195 >>12204
>>12194
>Going to be stuck learning on Blender 2.79b for now (Intel GMA).
Not sure why you have to do that, but I'd highly recommend you choose v2.8 or higher. Tremendous improvements in literally hundreds of ways. v4.1 is the current Alpha, BTW.
Replies: >>12196
>>12195
Blender 2.8 doesn't work with GPUs below OpenGL 3.3 and Intel GMAs are OpenGL 2.0.
Replies: >>12227
>>12194
You are going to get familiar with Blender, not the OS. I'd pick the OS with the latest version of Blender.
Replies: >>12227
>>4969
no way WeoK is not from the Major League Baseball
>>12196
Ahh, I see. Well, if you're going to make any serious investment in using Blender after this gig or whatever, you owe to yourself to use v3.6 (or even 4.0). Blender has really moved into the big leagues of DCC post-v2.8, and the experience is dramatically better today.

>>12204
I'm pretty sure he's saying his H/W won't support it.
So I found a bug in NetBSD and I'd like to fix it myself, but I'm having trouble with their lack of documentation. I did some more research and asked around and... it seems NetBSD doesn't have any documentation explaining how to compile only a part of the system.
It has documentation explaining how to build the kernel, the entire userland, how to update it from source instead of binaries, and things of the sort, but nowhere does it say how to compile only dkctl or any other command.

Apparently, you're expected to compile the entire thing. Now I have to do this shit on a Pentium 4 because that's where I run NetBSD. Of course, I can cross compile it on a different machine, but that just complicates things further. This comes after I found out the wiki can only be modified by NetBSD developers earlier which prevented me from fixing some typos, grammar, and incorrect information I found.

NetBSD can be quite asinine. This development process wastes a lot of developer time and I'm sure it shies away potential contributors like it's doing here. 

There's more nonsense like this in other places of the system too: for instance, NetBSD doesn't have anything like OpenBSD's syspatch, FreeBSD's freebsd-update, or the Linux approach where there's no base system and whatever you'd call a "base" gets updated by the package manager. This means that NetBSD binary releases accumulate unpatched security vulnerabilities that they expect you to fix by compiling the system yourself. This is made worse by the fact that NetBSD seldom has binary releases, the current 9.3 came out over a year ago, and the website lists plenty of security vulnerabilities that have been fixed in the source code, but that haven't made their way to any binary release.

There are good things about NetBSD, but there's a lot of REALLY dumb shit all over it too.
Replies: >>12963
>>12365
>This means that NetBSD binary releases accumulate unpatched security vulnerabilities that they expect you to fix by compiling the system yourself. This is made worse by the fact that NetBSD seldom has binary releases, the current 9.3 came out over a year ago, and the website lists plenty of security vulnerabilities that have been fixed in the source code, but that haven't made their way to any binary release.
I've been looking into NetBSD and was curious about this as well, I think how it works is that you have three branches: RELEASE, CURRENT and STABLE. RELEASE is a frozen point in time that doesn't get changes (which is presently 9.3), CURRENT is the latest development version and STABLE is where improvements and fixes are made to the current RELEASE branch (which will potentially become 9.4 in the future). My understanding is that if you update from the 9 STABLE branch you will get all the bug and security fixes for 9.3 in binary form.
3352e9ed8d0d45f0ac238cda8de0dbada7c5b50c.jpg
[Hide] (104.2KB, 600x800)
>>4968 (OP) 
TinkerOS is newer fork of TempleOS
>https://github.com/tinkeros/TinkerOS

But unfortunately one of their goals is to "Cleanup some unfortunate language that was left in TempleOS.". Into thrash it goes.
Replies: >>13776
What OS should I learn to use as a tech noob that isn't that autistic about tech but just wanna get off windows? I'm trying linux mint. Also any resources would be welcome, I'm not a cs student or programmer.
>>4968 (OP) 
>>4969
>>13723
H...Higurashi bros, is there any Alternative Operating System where we can read our beloved series' VN or are we stuck as anime/manga-onlies?
>>13776
its on the ps3
Replies: >>13811
>>13776
If you have a windows program, it's either wine or vm. Some bsd has wine port and qemu.
There is also reactos, not sure how well the vn runs there. Report back.
Replies: >>15953
>>13776
You can emulate the PS2/PS3/DS releases if you don't want to mess with Wine.
>>13777
>Higurashi
>ps3
You want an emulator called RPCS3.
https://forums.rpcs3.net/thread-178968.html
Replies: >>13814
>>13811
The Japanese Switch releases are also an option provided you know your runes.
Just noticed that NetBSD 10 renamed blacklistd to blocklistd.
https://man.netbsd.org/NetBSD-9.4/blacklistd.8
https://man.netbsd.org/NetBSD-10.0/blocklistd.8
Replies: >>14090
>>14086
>NetBSD 10 renamed blacklistd to blocklistd.
Oh no the cultural marxists have won.
>>4968 (OP) 
this might be interesting 
(squeak/smalltalk as baremetal/ without OS)

https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1762
https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5727
just like schizo terry to have the background colors of the ukranian flag
Replies: >>14534
8e030324485fd2e8e4b1612a4332ea9cbad8ff87b73e5e4ad48bde72229d8380.png
[Hide] (13.2MB, 2880x1795)
>>14533
it's meant to represent an elephant in its natural habitat, the savannah, where the ground is typically made of dried grass and sparse trees and shrubbery. the fact it's bright yellow like that is due to the OS extremely limited color palette, and not a deliberate artistic choice.
Replies: >>14561
>>14534
I understand faggot just a little coincidental.
Is Haiku usable as a daily driver OS? I heard that it has POSIX compatibility layer, so I might try it. Also, is there any micro kernel OS that's actually close to being at least mostly usable? I don't mind bad performance or jank, if it's mostly usable.
Replies: >>15835
>>15829
>daily driver
You can use pen and paper as daily driver. What do you do daily? Most people's daily driver is not an OS, but a browser. If Haiku can run Firefox or Chromium then it can be.
The problem as always is going to be hardware drivers. Do you have compatible hardware, or can you write your own drivers? Also it's worse if you need complicated hardware like 3D GPU, instead of simple 640x480 software rendering.
scr-20250421202852.png
[Hide] (6.4KB, 640x480)
Uhhh I did the pkgin upgrade. Maybe the yt-dlp will work again. It usually never works for me. ;(
Replies: >>15857
slaid1.png
[Hide] (36.4KB, 1280x800)
I've found an interesting OS: KolibriOS.
It's a very light and highly optimized OS.
I want to create a small program or game for that OS in C, so if I succeed, I will post my program here!
Replies: >>15857
>>15847
Download a yt-dlp executable from the official github, that should work.

>>15850
>I want to create a small program or game for that OS in C
Is there an equivalent of zenity or dialog on Kolibri? If not, you could implement one yourself.
Replies: >>15873
>>15857
>Is there an equivalent of zenity or dialog on Kolibri? If not, you could implement one yourself.
You mean is there a way to create windows? If that's the question, from what I've seen, yes. It is the typical DrawWindow(x, y, ...); function.
Replies: >>15877
>>15873
Zenity is a standalone program that you call from shell scripts or other programs, you pass some command line arguments to it and it automatically creates a window for you. There are already a few implementations of it using GTK, Qt, ...etc.
Replies: >>15925
>>15877
As far as I know, nope, there's no zenity on KolibriOS.
Replies: >>15926
>>15925
>there's no zenity on KolibriOS
I figured so, try implementing it yourself then.
Screenshot_20250217_220151_Gallery.jpg
[Hide] (1.2MB, 1920x1200)
>>4968 (OP) 
>tfw my current "desktop" is my galaxy tablet
>my os is literally just android/oneui
do I still fit in, /tech/bros?
>>15947
>daily driving a mobile device
>turd worlder
Checks out.
Replies: >>15964
1682744783467695.png
[Hide] (20.3KB, 400x450)
>>15947
Android is just a corporate (FAGMAN) Linux fork, so not really an alternative. It's actually one of the most common things out there.
Replies: >>15964
>>15947
yeah actually mi filho
Replies: >>15964
>>15947
Nothing wrong with it as long as it works for you.  I have yet to actually  decide which icons I like better.

>>13779
There is a native linux  build as well protondb says it's gud.  But I don't spend money on visual novels typically since it's unlikely I'll ever read them again unless using it as a excuse to learn Japanese which then it makes sense to buy. 
Because I cannot just switch it without downloading another copy off a torrent.

I don't really like the second arc of Higurashi because how Ryu treats Satoko as a punching bag and just an empty way to bring up child  abuse when it already lost it impact after the first time outside of shock value of episode 5 it repeats itself way too much.
Replies: >>15964
1720904972515843_(1).png
[Hide] (876.8KB, 1024x1024)
>>15948
It just fits my use case perfectly really, I got it as a supplementary device to my laptop, but it ended up being my main because I can do 90% of what I need on it, so I only use the laptop for those activities where I need a proper computer, but that's still rare.

>>15949
I see, could you say it's a Linux distro then, or would that be going to far?

>>15951
Cool! Thanks.

>>15953
Do you mean using the regular ones, or the colored ones Samsung offers in the basic theme settings, or an actual icon pack?
Replies: >>15965 >>15969
templeos.jpg
[Hide] (27.7KB, 400x400)
>>15964
> could you say it's a Linux distro
I don't know, I try to avoid using my Android phone as much as possible. ;^)
But either way, it's not an alternative OS in the sense that he's talking about in OP.
Replies: >>16050
>>15964
An actual icon pack as in like the ones you would find on Pling.
Replies: >>16050
>>15965
Fair point.

>>15969
I see, have you managed to decide, anon?
Replies: >>16054
eada4a6b0d4a452c152add2bc0dbeb2d244d73fe9aea1c2d7306001bbe95e51e.gif
[Hide] (2.7MB, 498x278)
>>16050
I have actually surprisingly. Vortex-Light-Icons
Replies: >>16057
>>16054
Nice! I'm happy for you, anon. Want to share any screenshots of how your screen's looking with them? (No need if you don't want to, anon. No pressure).
Smalltalk-78-emulation-1024x818.png
[Hide] (473.1KB, 1024x818)
>>4968 (OP) 
Xerox Smalltalk-80 and Cedar were ahead of their time. Smalltalk systems actually inspired Plan 9's acme & Rio and early Apple GUIs. It also probably inspired Wirth's Oberon project.

tl;dr
What if you could have an OS that's made and extended with just one simple language? The Dynabook was designed for middle school kids! What if you could browse components and inspect everything? What if you could use the debugger to reprogram anything and the system could just continue from that point? What if it also has good support for text, graphics, mouse and keyboard? Today you can learn and experience Smalltalk using Pharo. Here is their free MOOC: https://mooc.pharo.org

 Demos 
>Quick Smalltalk demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqKyHEJe9_w
>ST-80: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uknEhXyZgsg
>Smalltalk emulator Zoo: https://smalltalkzoo.computerhistory.org

>Cedar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1PY7swbKP0
>more Cedar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_dt7NG38V4
Replies: >>17989 >>17994
Ubuntu+Touch_Sample_1.jpg
[Hide] (201.8KB, 1200x630)
>>4968 (OP) 
I'm not sure if this counts... but is Ubuntu Touch still supported? With the recent Android developments I feel it's time to move on from it, they've finally gone too far. My fear with Ubuntu Touch is, is it actually easy to install in any device I'll happen to own? Are the applications I use daily actually available for it? If it's not viable, I might have to use Android...
Replies: >>17980
>>16939
Ubuntu Touch is dead as far as I know. Your only option is PostmarketOS ( or maybe SailfishOS if it gains more momentum? ) Could you use the kernel and drivers from Android on PostmarketOS?
>>16368
Aren't TempleOS and Lisp operating systems kind of like that? I know Unix aims for something a bit less ambitious (everything is a file + everything is plaintext + building tiny programs that you string together in the shell), but falters noticeably and fails to carry that philosophy over to graphical computing.
Replies: >>17991 >>17994
>>17989
>fails to carry that philosophy over to graphical computing
To be fair, the good people over at suckless try their hardest to marry the UNIX philosophy with a GUI, and I'd say they've done a decent job. The problem is that just about everyone else wants to copy either Windows or Mac OS.
Replies: >>17994
>>16368 
Speaking of the Oberon and the Wirthian lineage overall, a relatively modern incarnation is A2:
https://gitlab.inf.ethz.ch/felixf/oberon

>>17989
Most interactive UIs from the era were like that, the advent of what we think of today as the "normal" way a CLI or GUI work with an environment/app/file distinction are perversions that arose mostly in the late '70s: >>17182

>>17991
Unlike a CLI where barfing raw text or bitstreams can just barely function as a conventional "architecture", GUIs absolutely require some kind of rigidly defined standard for metadata and IPC interfaces. For that reason IMHO the bare minimum equivalent to the *N*X philosophy in a GUI was probably something like OpenDoc or OLE, but that sort of component-based software was never never really embraced in spite of OS devs pushing it, because app devs didn't want to give up their vendor lock-in.
panasonic-toughbook-cf18-opt.png
[Hide] (308.3KB, 1024x768)
I'm most interested in Redox. After thinking about Rust, I don't see why an OS should be in C++, now. It's more secure and just as performant. I was originally wanting to contribute to Linux, Haiku or Sailfish, but I think a Rust OS is the way forward. I'm not interested in Linux or anything derived from it anymore. It was merely a stepping stone.
>>18022
Although better, rust is also not the way foward as there is no way built into the language to signal the processor to execute based on a order you control. Its definitely a step up from linux but its haphazardly and deceptively so. They mix unsafe rust code in thier kernel as its required to poke at certain things. The language has its own package manager built in, and its shit like every other binary based shared object based package manager. You can use the redox OS userland from a linux kernel, just like the redox OS userland is using its kernel with a GNU userland with rust mixed in. Its a systemd based distro so its garbage by default. Its not even using sodium or libressl for fucks sake.
>>18024
>rust is also not the way foward as there is no way built into the language to signal the processor to execute based on a order you control.
Yes, there is. It's unsafe Rust. 

>They mix unsafe rust code in thier kernel as its required to poke at certain things
And? It's still the safest alternative because unsafe blocks are wrapped in safe abstractions. 

>The language has its own package manager built in, and its shit like every other binary based shared object based package manager.
Pkgutils is Redox's systems package manager and it's separate from Rust's Cargo. The team has also been looking at other alternatives. 

>You can use the redox OS userland from a linux kernel, just like the redox OS userland is using its kernel with a GNU userland with rust mixed in
It's meant to be portable and it has to use them while it develops its own tools. You're criticizing the transitional state, not the end product. 

>Its a systemd based distro so its garbage by default. 
This is completely false. Redox is its own OS with its own kernel. It doesn't have and can't use systemd. 

>Its not even using sodium or libressl for fucks sake.
And? It uses OpenSSL for compatibility. 

If you take a look at the OS, you'll  see you're a little misinformed. I think Redox is definitely a step up from Linux.
Replies: >>18027
>>18026
>Yes, there is. It's unsafe Rust. 
Brainlet. There is no modern processor in existance that allows the forced hinting of the order of execution of commands, letalone a language built upon that concept. Its all FIFO with a gazillion SOC's in the processor to manipulate for different bottlenecks by pre-executing branches or condensing instructions or such things. Some of the few processors that allowed for such a thing were ancient powerpc designs and the cell engine.
>And? It uses OpenSSL for compatibility. 
Compat with what? Backdoors and terrible defaults? Does heartbleed ring a bell? Does the recent openssh backdoor on systemd distros and using openssl and xz ring a bell?
>It's meant to be portable and it has to use them while it develops its own tools. You're criticizing the transitional state, not the end product. 
Brainlet again, its a unix and has all the flaws that unices have. It would have been better to base its kernel on NT or herd for fucks sake.
<This is completely false. Redox is its own OS with its own kernel. It doesn't have and can't use systemd. 
https://www.redox-os.org/news/this-month-251031/
>Wildan Mubarok created a fork and successfully ported the rustysd written-in-Rust portable systemd-like service manager, and started nginx and OpenSSH daemon at boot using systemd-like configuration files in the server-demo variant.
>The team has also been looking at other alternatives. 
Yes there is a alternative that would speed up their developement and force them to fix issues in cargo in order to package their software across multiple architectures as well as expanding the ported software list and allowing for easier user freedom: install gentoo faggot, do it.
>I think Redox is definitely a step up from Linux.
I already stated the redox kernel is a better thing then the linux kernel. But its only marginally better because pajeets and kikes working on software they don't understand will have a harder time shooting themselves in the foot and putting backdoors in the kernel by nature of the rust language. It still will be done however. Oh don't even get me started on their license.
Replies: >>18029
137593505136.jpg
[Hide] (14.3KB, 240x320)
>>18022
>>18024
It doesn't help that Rust is literally an unproven language. The language does not have a proper formal specification behind it, but is whatever retarded shit the Rust Team throws into the compiler and puts into their joke of a "spec." There is no formal, logical proof that Rust does what it says it does: it just seems okay in most cases, so the devs call it a day and toot their horn about how safe and secure the language is when they literally do not know for certain if their language works the way it's supposed to.
Basically every language made within the last couple decades is like this except for Standard ML.
You're welcome.
Replies: >>18029
>>18022 
It seems to embody the typical RIIR problem of conservatism. Its lowest levels are in Rust instead of C, but it doesn't offer a full GC for higher levels (its glue lang of choice is Python, barf!), and its attempt at a more earnest microkernel is somewhat distinctive nowadays, but it stops short of something more radical like an exokernel. It's basically just a standard *N*X, with only vague gestures of admiration cast toward more purist architectures like Plan 9 and ZFS, but it also isn't aiming for full POSIX compatibility.

I dunno, it's not bad in theory, I guess if it works it could do what Hurd failed to?

>>18024
>there is no way built into the language to signal the processor to execute based on a order you control
<muh transient execution insecurity
How do spergs always get this wrong? Every single statement on the subject, back to the original proof of concept for Spectre, noted that speculative execution obviously can be disabled at any level of execution (app, compiler, userland, kernel, VM, microcode, ASIC). The thing that got everybody's panties in a bunch was that doing so will hurt performance, and that fixes for specific known exploits if implemented higher up that hierarchy will also regain less performance. Also, to date there are exactly zero known malwares "in the wild" implementing any such exploit, meaning the threat remains pure conjecture for almost a decade. Note, however, there is another angle to speculative execution rooted much deeper in the conventional architecture of software today, related to our complaints about *N*X/ weenies/Cnility...
>They mix unsafe rust code in thier kernel
The point of Rust (or other strictly typed langs like Ada) is that unsafe code is a known quantity for debugging, and easier to single out for refactoring when possible, not that you can totally eliminate it from all types of software.
>>18027
>its a unix and has all the flaws that unices have
Per the above point about speculative execution and C/*N*X, shared with Rust's reliance on the C stdlib:
<C Is Not a Low-level Language:
<Your computer is not a fast PDP-11.
https://spawn-queue.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3212477.3212479
>systemd-like
Actually read a little about rustysd and you'll see its current state and future goals are substantially different from SystemD. In particular, it avoids the one actual misfeature inherent to SystemD, because the author is specifically opposed to swallowing up even many of the OS features SystemD already has.
>install gentoo
Arguably Guix/Nix would be even moar xtrem

>>18028
>The language does not have a proper formal specification behind it
Not internally, but the external Ferrocene offers one, and work is underway to merge it into Rust as the official spec, complete with a stably versioned verified toolchain.
>Basically every language made within the last couple decades is like this except for Standard ML.
Any language can, however, have a single static subset specified and verified likewise, as in the case of CompCert C.
>>18029
>Not internally, but the external Ferrocene offers one, and work is underway to merge it into Rust as the official spec, complete with a stably versioned verified toolchain.
That's good to hear.
>>18029
<noted that speculative execution obviously can be disabled at any level of execution
>app
You can not disable branch prediction at the app level. There is no language in existance that lets you control this as they are all shit C or lisp clones.
>compiler
Neither llvm nor gcc implement forced order execution on general purpose cpu's because there is no way to hint in assembly or in RTL the order of execution, or if there is the hints are not respected.  The only thing that comes remotely close is mesa's gallium compiler.
>userland
Same as an app
>kernel
The kernel only has as much control as the hardware lets it.
>VM
There are VM's that imitate in order execution, they are slow and insecure because of their foundations.
>microcode
You do not control this, its able to be reprogrammed anyways.


Controlling the order of execution isn't just even a security problem, its a performance problem. If I wanted to use 128 cores of a proccessor to execute a program in parallel as much as possible I can not. The stupid OOE SOC will force it to execute on one or two cores even with stupid tricks and hacks. This affects anything using the kikes OOE implementation, ARM, x86, itanium's newer versions, mips, newer powerpc, sparc, risc-v, the asian x86 clones, etc.
patchi_reads_pfpl.png
[Hide] (331.8KB, 600x887)
>>18031
>as they are all shit C clones
ALGOL*
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/pfpl.html
>>18031
> You can not disable branch prediction at the app level. 
Technically you can invalidate it, you just have to make every instruction dependent on memory loads, but it's only practical in limited cryptographic scenarios, where you need a constant-time implementation resistant to side-channel timing attacks. Same goes for order of execution - data dependency can ensure required serialization. But all at the price of L1 cache speeds.
Replies: >>18034 >>18035
>>18031
>language
Irrelevant. The only thing your CPU touches is ASM, any software that touches your software before can alter that ASM, and of course most languages include a convenient facility for handwritten ASM or can link one that does.
>You do not control this
Much as with mobo firmware or IME/PSP, this is more out of obscurity and disinterest than impossibility. Aside from genuinely open and publicly documented ISAs, there are some locked down CPUs such as Goldmont, K8, & K10 that tinkerers have done preliminary reverse engineering of microcode firmware for.
>I can not
You can, but it is inconvenient and leaves (optimized for idiomatic C) silicon dark. As the ACM paper I linked noted, though, hardware designed around other more modern languages would allow parallelism, locality, and formatting to be employed far more transparently.

>>18033 
Yeah, the cost of just blindly LFENCE'ing everything into oblivion is dire, like over 50%:
https://experts.illinois.edu/en/publications/invisispec-making-speculative-execution-invisible-in-the-cache-hi/
>>18033
Memory loads do not affect branch prediction. It's what enables Meltdown actually, by speculatively fetching memory of a predicted branch.
Serializing instructions such as CPUID do limit branch prediction I believe.
Looking at Linux kernel docs it does seem like you can disable some forms of branch prediction https://docs.kernel.org/admin-guide/hw-vuln/spectre.html#mitigation-selection-guide 
>For security-sensitive programs that have secrets (e.g. crypto keys), protection against Spectre variant 2 can be put in place by disabling indirect branch speculation when the program is running (See Documentation/userspace-api/spec_ctrl.rst).
FWIW there is a bit to disable caches, though you'll suffer a massive performance hit.

Speaking of alternate hardware designs: dataflow machines are the most interesting here IMO. Original dataflow machines have issues with handling too much parallelism. OoOE is a limited form of dataflow, but with a lot of extra hardware to make it seem it executes in-order.
All that extra hardware can be removed if software accounts for it, e.g. avoid aliasing reads/writes, no precise rollback on exceptions ... Such a processor probably won't be useful for directly performing I/O though (handling interrupts would be particularly painful).
I recall reading about a research architecture that operates by issuing a whole block of instructions as a single unit instead of instruction-by-instruction, which apparently has very high performance gains for some tasks. I don't remember what it was called though.
Replies: >>18036
>>18035
I think the architecture I am thinking of is EDGE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explicit_data_graph_execution . The term "hyperblock" rings a bell, at least, as well as the mention of many, many functional units (which I assume is what is meant with "internal units").
>>18029
<Your computer is not a fast PDP-11.
But what if it was a fast PDP-11? I am mostly joking, of course, but x86 started out as a 16 bit microchip, and the PDP-11 was already extended to 32 bit with the VAX, so why not extend it again to 64 bit and also apply large scale integration until it fits onto a mini-ITX board?
Replies: >>18043
Withering_away_of_the_state_by_1980.webp
[Hide] (322.1KB, 1000x1073)
>>18041
That was attempted, it did not work. On a more serious note, PDP-11 clone architectures in the USSR and its satellites originally created for institutional use, accumulating various enhancements into the micro era, so that they evolved into basically the Soviet C64.
Replies: >>18063
>>18043
>PDP-11 is relatively single yet capable
>it also influences the microprocessors of the 80s to a degree
>DEC then makes VAX, which is supposed to be a replacement for the PDP-11 family just in 32 bit, but in practice they throw everything and the kitchen sink into the architecture
>a study reveals that most of the extra instructions are basically never used, and it sparks the RISC boom of the 90s
>but there are way too many horses in the workstation race, as seemingly everyone develops their own RISC architecture
>meanwhile Intel & AMD slowly push the x86 forward
>eventually the RISCs peter out by the middle of the 2000s and x86 catches up in performance:cost ratio to the point that you can get most of the performance of a RISC workstation for a fraction of the cost
>but then ARM becomes the de facto standard of goyphones, and then Apple adapts that in 2020
>Microsoft tries to copy them, but basically nobody seems to care about their ARM laptops
Is this correct? And if yes, are you referring to the RISC boom of the 90s as the failed attempt at making a real fast PDP-11?
Replies: >>18069
42-years-processor-trend.png
[Hide] (106KB, 1578x1000)
>>18063 
>are you referring to the RISC boom of the 90s as the failed attempt at making a real fast PDP-11?
No. I am referring to Intel's MHz race marketing stunt in the late-'90s to the early-'00s, when Intel made cockspeed the sole yarddick by which consumers compare CPU performance. In service to this Intel sacrificed actual performance for CPUs like NetBust with pipelines long enough to pump oil from Alaska, the goal being chips running at 'DOZENS OF GHZ' by the mid-to-late-'00s. This hubris against the laws of physics was only halted in the early-'00s by AMD busting Intel's balls with Athlon, which Intel only managed to recover from thanks to an afterthought laptop arch (Pentium M) with much better IPC that was hurriedly beefed up into the desktop/server class Core arch, while Pentium 4 was quietly chucked into the dustbin of history.

This resoundingly killed the Pentium as a brand, single-processor computers, single-threaded software, and Moore's Law, all at once. With it died the last shred of realism for the "fast PDP-11" that C/*N*X is still inherently idealized around.
 
>Is this correct?
The four initial steps, yeah. After that, it's more like:
<most RISCs are actually from panicked m68k users, due to Apple (as part of corporate skulduggery probably from an IBM sellout attempt by Sculley) fucking over the m88k RISC everybody was originally supposed to migrate to
<the vulnerability of RISCs is further compounded by most of them hiding in high-margin low-volume workstation/server/high-end embedded markets out of both greed, and cowardice in the face of WinTel's seemingly unassailable grip on the early-'90s PC market.
<RISC stomps CISC in both IPC AND CLOCKS. Even Intel gives up, slaps an encoder atop an internal RISC, dubs it "Pentium Pro", and pretends it's still x86. This is how all "x86" works to this day.
<Intel has the best fabs, usually beating everybody else to smaller nodes, especially in volume. This is an advantage they can lean on whenever their designs are too shit. All of their competitors today have gone fabless out of despair.
<Compilers for x86 are generally better, in particular both Intel's own icc & M$'s MSVC are usually outstanding. This is compounded by software for other ISAs more often being built with the mediocre GCC that is even more mediocre on these other ISAs, instead of better 1st-party/proprietary compilers, especially before GCC improved in the '00s.
<Intel do corpo gayops to internally subvert Alpha, ARM, PA-RISC, MIPS. This is part of a broader Itanic FUD campaign that also demoralizes SPARC & POWER/PPC.
<More organically, commoditization undermining the vendor lock-in that subsidizes most ISAs is only made possible by the rise of Linux, Beowulf/blade clusters, virtualization, and GPGPU on nVidia/ATI. Though most of the direct benefits initially go to AMD's Opteron, because...
<Intel's winning streak causes them to become wildly overconfident. Along with the aforementioned P4 MHz myth debacle, Itanic is sunk by AMD64, and Rambus is rejected in favor of DDR.
<ARM winning the mobile battle is entirely the result of the iPhone. Remember that Android initially mandated Java due to market uncertainty regarding MIPS, x86/Transmeta, and possibly others like SuperH. Only once alignment with Apple made ARM HW a foregone conclusion did Google relent to allow native ASM.
<Apple ("modern" macOS) and Google (ChromeOS) ruthlessly abused ARM migration to lock down their PC platforms into phone/gayconsole-tier Nazi torture dungeons. M$ is mad jelly, and absolutely refuses to migrate Windows from x86 for any other reason, so every official ARM Windows platform is turbocucked on both the software and hardware levels even compared to modern WinTel. M$ knows Apple/Google were only able to do that because their customers are entirely drooling sheeple, whereas Windows is still used by too many actual humans with real jobs they can't do on a walled garden chewtoy. M$ will still keep trying.
Replies: >>18081
>>18069
Thanks, guess I will try to read about the Intel gayops that sabotaged their competitors to better understand this subject.
>Intel gives up, slaps an encoder atop an internal RISC, dubs it "Pentium Pro", and pretends it's still x86. This is how all "x86" works to this day.
So x86-64 inherited this design, and modern x86 is actually RISC with extra steps for backward compatibility?

Also, a few years ago I bought a pair of ThinkCentres, because they were so cheap and old that I was worried the local friendly used business computer merchant will trash them if nobody buys them. One of them is a relatively boring one from Lenovo, but the other one is IBM-Lenovo co-branded, has a Pentium 4 inside, and it's actually a BTX case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTX_(form_factor)
I actually had no idea about it when I bought that machine, but after reading upon it I am even happier, because it really is a beautiful package of failure on multiple levels. I am not even sure what should I do with it, because it obviously uses too much power for a server, and its performance is way too low for all that energy, so it just gathers dust for the time being.
Replies: >>18082 >>18084
>>18081
Also, it has both a DVD and a floppy drive, and also both USB & RS-232, although the latter combo is rather standard even for business computers from the middle of the previous decade. On top of it, the integrated graphics only comes with a VGA connector, so there is a DVI connector on a separate card that has IBM branding. Really, I might just take out the side panel, glue in a plastic sheet (with a glue that can be easily removed), and put it in a corner so that I can randomly adore it for its weirdness.
>>18081
>Intel gayops
The ones I alluded to were the DEC/Compaq/Apple/ARM lawsuit, and the HP/SGI/M$ Rick Belluzzo saga. A popular companion piece is the Symbian/Qt/Nokia/M$ Stephen Elop saga.
>So x86-64 inherited this design, and modern x86 is actually RISC with extra steps for backward compatibility?
Yes. In AMD's case, it was even more blatant. What they plopped the x86 decoder on was AMD's preexisting 29k RISC core to make the K5. Though the K6 and all AMD's modern designs originate from the Nx586 that came out just before the PPro, another "RISC with an x86 decoder" chip which AMD bought NexGen for.
>BTX
Was actually a good idea. ATX and everything that lines up with it is inherently screwed up, an evolutionary accident like how the vertebrate retina being upside down makes us all have a blind spot.
Screenshot_20260214_150100_Termux.jpg
[Hide] (878.3KB, 1920x1200)
>>15947
I made some changes, mainly finding out how to have a terminal with Termux, and enabling the OneUI's "Edge Panel" which feels like a taskbar, these changes make it so my current setup reminds me of how Ubuntu looks and feels, at least in it's latest versions, I do get now why many say GNOME looks like a tablet's UX/UI, though I think that's not a bad thing.
I watched this talk ------> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCiRxM8dOSY
I got interested in Plan9 (and the 9P protocol). Plan 9 is more UNIX than UNIX. Everything is a file. Just write to /net, if you want to access a network server. You can even use it to make a network for distributed computing (ex. a build farm) for free!  The other computer/CPU is a file.

BTW, does $anyone know if there is a plumber feature for Linux? Also, should I use 9Base or Plan9Port? I want to test Acme!
[New Reply]
142 replies | 32 files
Connecting...
Show Post Actions

Actions:

Captcha:

Select the solid/filled icons
- news - rules - faq -
jschan 1.7.3