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welcome_to_k.webm
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Благодарим Тебя за то, что раскрыл слугам Твоим козни врагов наших! 
Озари сиянием Твоим души тех, кто отдал жизнь во исполнение воли Твоей! 
В бой, защитники Монолита! В бой! 
Отомстим за павших братьев наших, да будет благословенно вечное их единение с Монолитом! 
Смерть… лютая смерть тем, кто отвергает Его священную силу!
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What's a good first-time rifle to buy? I've been considering the CETME-L for a long time, but they're relatively uncommon and from what I've read have had issues with jamming, hence why they were replaced. However I love the overall design of it, but don't want to spend a ton of money on a gun that I won't like and can't return. Does anyone have experience with this gun and can give an honest opinion?
Replies: >>338 >>412
>>334
PTRs are very similar to that and from my experience they don't have issues with jamming, but they will fuck up your brass so if you reload then it's not a good idea. Also .308/7.62x51 rounds are pretty expensive nowadays.
How much experience do you have with shooting anyway? If you don't have that much then it might be a better idea to go to a range and rent multiple guns to try them out and see what you like best, because sometimes the stuff you like the look of can turn out to be a tremendous pain in the ass when you actually go to use it.
Replies: >>340
>>338
Basically none with rifles, I usually go shooting with my P09 at the range, and quite frankly I am not very good. I did a lot better with my Ranger 120 and slugs, but I'd still like a proper raifu just so I have one of each; I never really wanted more than that anyways.
Replies: >>342
>>340
Sorry to be that guy, but for a first time rifle a basic bitch milspec AR15 is the most reasonable option. Easy to shoot/low recoil, accurate, modern manual of arms, shitloads of aftermarket if you want to improve it later, etc.

If we're talking wild and unreasonable, just pick whatever is coolest that you can afford. CETME-Ls are incredibly hit and miss however, so be warned. Some were built by professional gunsmiths and have had the bugs worked out, and some were made by the proverbial Bubba in his garage who don't need no fancyass tools 'cause a Dremel's all ya need.
Replies: >>351
>>342
>a basic bitch milspec AR15 is the most reasonable option
This works too but you need to be really careful to not get ripped off, some gun stores are run by absolute niggers who know how to sniff out newbies and will shill a subpar build for like three times its actual worth. If you realize that is happening then you should just leave and find a better store because I personally have never been in one run by people like that where the inventory was worth even half a shit.
Replies: >>352
>>351
True. Maybe just price check Palmetto prebuilds and find a local store that carries/orders them?
Replies: >>356
>>352
That's certainly a much better idea than paying $3000 for a build that's all rails and no iron sights as his first rifle.
I'm about to go to a gun show for the first time since the cuck cough lockdowns. I know shit's probably going to be retarded expensive but it also makes me wonder if I could make a decent little chunk of change selling some of my old army bullshit. Like I have several basically pristine sets of those hideous digital camo ACUs that were replaced by multicam. I also have multiple extra camelbacks I was issued that I haven't even taken out of the packages (like 10) and a few other extra things.
Would it be worth trying to sell that kind of shit at a gun show?
Replies: >>400
>>399
of course, jack up the price 200-300% and there will be some boomer there to buy all of them with his kid's college fund.
Replies: >>402
>>400
Well I went to that show and the more modern firearms were surprisingly inexpensive, but the old school shit the boomerniggers always sell was jacked up far past 300%. Like anyone's gonna pay $5000 for a beat up double barrel shotgun from the 19th century, I get collectors are retards who willingly get findommed but Jesus Christ. All of the ammo was still ridiculously expensive though of course.
Anyway the type of military shit I have that I wanted to sell was going for very cheap unfortunately, there's a lot of bases around me so there probably isn't much of a shortage when it comes to any zogbot shit that was issued post-2003.
It's mostly the WW2 - Desert Storm era shit that's massively inflated in price.
>>334
Get a .22lr because you need to practice. Savage Model 64 goes for less than $150. After that either

A: Buy a lower ($60?), and add a cheap PSA kit ($350) with a cheap punch set (<$37) should be sub $460 after transfer
B: Buy an M&P15 or Ruger AR-556, which will be way more expensive ($650+transfer), but way less to go wrong if you can't follow basic instructions
C: Buy a KP-15 lower on Brownells ($70 after coupon code), a compatible $100 drop in trigger, the rest of the lower parts+buffer spring/buffer ($57.12+anti-walk pins) and a PSA pencil upper for $389.99. Have super light gun.
Replies: >>578
I'm a nogunz fag about to get a gun sometime within the next few months. I'm definitely going to get a long gun and a pistol, but I'm wracking my head on whether a shotgun or rifle would be better, and whether a revolver or an auto pistol would be better. To provide context, my current situation is such that I may have to retreat innawoods in a hurry and on foot. In such a case, what would be the best choices for me?
Replies: >>571 >>572
>>570
>shotgun or rifle
Rifle. Ammo is (generally) cheaper, more plentiful and lighter weight. Accuracy is great at ranges from 0 - 500m instead of 0-150m for shotgun w/ slugs. RIfle reloading is easier in 90% of cases. Rifle is more adaptable and depending on type just buy an AR can fit any accessory you can think of.
>revolver or an auto pistol
Modern polymer auto loader. Ammo is (generally) cheaper and more plentiful. Autoloader is more adaptable because scary restricted quiet-tubes can be fitted.

If you have to face a dire situation and need a gun, be boring and pick common shit.
Replies: >>572 >>577
>>570
>>571
And pick something that feels comfortable in your hands and practice with it regularly, you aren't going to hit shit with something that feels awkward and you barely know how it handles when fired. Generally a heavier frame = less recoil = easier to reacquire the target after firing.
Replies: >>577
>>571
>>572
Thanks for the help, strelok. What are the best cheap ARs and 9mm pistols? How much ammo should I have for each, and what is the optimal magazine size and amount to have, e.g., 2 extra mags of 30 rounds each for the AR and 3 mags of 13 rounds for the 9mm?
Replies: >>578 >>579
>>577
>What are the best cheap ARs and 9mm pistols?
Palmetto State Armory makes good ARs for cheap - see >>412 
9mm pistols? PSA also offers the Dagger, which is a cheap glockalike, but any pistol from the common manufacturers is good - Glock, S&W, SIG, etc. You can often get these used for hundreds less than new price.
>How much ammo should I have for each
As much as possible.
>optimal magazine size and amount to have
Mission specific. You mentioned you may need to bug out into the woods. For that scenario a rifle takes priority. 4-6 loaded STANAG 30 rounders with more ammo in stripper clips should do it, but more or less may be called for depending on the situation. For pistol, 2 mags is probably max as long as you're bringing a rifle. If you're using a pistol in a rifle fight you are in deep shit and need to use those rounds to get out as fast as possible.

Take all this with a grain of salt, however. There are so many possible scenarios you could run into that trying to give such generalized advice borders on ignorant. If you end up traveling with a squad of guys who are fighting all the time, you may wish you'd packed a thousand rounds of ammo in dozens of mags. If you end up needing to cross over a suburban environment everyday you may wish you had invested more into your pistol because carrying a rifle is like carrying a billboard that says "I'm dangerous! Shoot me!" So again, this is generic. Carry shit that your average infantryman might. Aside from guns and ammo, remember to leave room for first aid, medicine, water, tools, extra clothing, etc.
Replies: >>580
>>577
>What are the best cheap ARs and 9mm pistols
>9mm pistols
Hi Points are ugly as fuck and very heavy but they're extremely cheap (as in less than $250 even today I think) and I haven't had too many jamming issues with the ones I've played around with at the range. I've never actually owned or had to clean one though so I don't know how much of a pain in the ass they are to maintain nor do I know how well they function when filthy (though that shouldn't be an issue if you maintain your equipment).
A lot of people talk shit on them because of how heavy and ugly they are seriously justblook at one but functionally they seem fine to me and if you're really strapped for cash it's as good as any other ghetto blaster.
Replies: >>580
>>578
Thanks again, I'll check PSA's ARs out and see what I can find. Also, is there any real point in having camo? Is it just better to wear whatever feels comfortable and is practical, instead of being a gear queer?
>>579
I looked up the PSA's Hi-Points, and they look pretty good, but now I'm split between the 9mm and .45 models. Both have similar capacities, so I'm concerned about the power of each. Which would be better for use in that case?
Replies: >>581 >>582
>>580
>PSA's Hi-Points
What? PSA sells the Dagger, Hi-Point is a different manufacturer.
Replies: >>582
>>580
Well in your case 9mm probably since you're on a budget, .45 is going to cost you more per round which means you'll be getting less target practice in for more money. Since you're not very experienced (I'm assuming unless you go shooting with friends and use their guns or something) it's better to get as much practice in with a cheaper round and then start experimenting with other rounds after you've got an understanding of the fundamentals. 
>>581
They have hi points for sale in their online shop.
Also spotted a link on PSA's site talking about Washington state banning a shitload of firearms. What a fuckin travesty, why are the most beautiful states so full of fucking faggots?
Replies: >>584
>>583
>best states ruined by faggots 
Because they are parasites and go for the easiest living places before ruining the other harder to live places (like Montana and Wyoming)...
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if the deer gun was made of die-cast aluminum how comes it was able to withstand the pressure of a 9mm round without bursting? Was it just the shortness of the barrel? Are there any other guns where the barrel is cast instead of forged?
What is a good full size .45 automatic that isn't yet another 1911 clone? Preferably something that's aesthetic but not retarded expensive and also has a double stack magazine.
Replies: >>604 >>605 >>643
>>603
To elaborate on my situation all my local gun stores have only 1911s in stock in regards to .45s and I already have a 1911, so I'll probably be looking for something online but as far as pricing goes for fuddy fahvs it'd be nice to have some kind of frame of reference for what's a ripoff and what isn't.
Replies: >>605
>>603
>>604
Wish I could help. The only double stack .45acp pistols I can think of off the top of my head are the HK USP 45 which is retarded expensive and the Glocks which are not aesthetic.

.45acp is a weird cartridge for double stack. Most manufacturers seem to avoid it because it's so wide. Most of the time if there is a demand for a more-powerful-than-9mm, straight walled cartridge  for a given double stack pistol they'll engineer for solutions like .40S&W or 10mm
Replies: >>606
>>605
Damn I figured the lack of selection had something to do with the fat grips. I do want to get a 10mm at some point but there's slim pickings there too from what I've seen and the ammo is retarded expensive.
>>603
CZ 97 BD.
>not retard expensive
M&P45 2.0
What are the dogshit brands I should stay away from at all costs?
Replies: >>666
>>665
Anything century or tarrus. CZ polymer pistols after they sold out that branch to colt.
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subterranean weaponry and machinery when?
Replies: >>772
>>766
Drilling tunnels is hard, and those machines are way too expensive and finicky for war to begin with. We would need a really unexpected technological breakthrough or two, such as making powerfields real.
I'm about to buy a Hi-Point fuddy fahv nigger blaster because every other .45 is retarded overpriced now. I've heard they're actually pretty solid guns despite how ugly they are. I got to fingerfuck one in a store and it's sure as hell solid at least in the weight sense, does anyone here have any experience with them?
Replies: >>1150
>>1142
I can only tell yoy that it has historically a great reputation on /k/ and Hi-Point is the one company that cheaps out on looks designs and features, not on quality.
Replies: >>1152
>>1150
Alright fuck it it's only like $200 after tax even if it sucks it's not raping my wallet.
Replies: >>1227
>>1152
Are you enjoying your gun anon ?
Replies: >>1229
>>1227
Someone bought it before I got back to the gun shop so I'm looking around for another one. I may say fuck it and order one online, but that's a last resort.
Hello. I would like to ask whether, in a conventional war scenario, if engineering degree graduates will be spared from the draft? and if not, if they could serve the war effort in some other way than simply being a grunt?

The circumstances of the war would be in eastern europe. So you would be a citizen of a country with a small, corrupt and inefficient army and an almost inexistent navy/airforce.

FYI I am from Romania and considering studying electrical engineering at an marine university so that I can be both an officer in the global merchant marine and an electrical engineer on land.
Replies: >>1314 >>1316 >>1395
>>1289
> if engineering degree graduates will be spared from the draft?
No. Unless you are working in essential industry, like being a head honcho at a power plant you are fucked.
>and if not, if they could serve the war effort in some other way than simply being a grunt?
Depends, the army always tries to use your abilities but a) they might not have needs for your specialty b) you might end up as cannon fodder either way.

Basically, if third world war comes you are fucked either way. If you are as afraid as I am of your own state that has been nothing but an enemy your whole life enslaving you then sacrificing you in pointless conflict then you should have enough funds stored to bribe anyone, a plan of escape and preferably something to shoot at "recruiters"
Replies: >>1385
>>1289
>electrical engineering 
You'll be conscripted to keep communications up and running on the front. Unless you get into an essential role like other anon said, or in a role that is needed on the supply/maintenance/R&D, off the frontlines.
Replies: >>1385
>>1314
>Unless you are working in essential industry, like being a head honcho at a power plant
Isn't that more of a job for energy engineers?
>you are fucked
How fucked? Remember I am romanian and quite poor due to coming from a poor family and me barely being a legal adult(can finally be hired legally)
>the army
the romanian army? Are you romanian?
>they might not have needs for your specialty
true, they only train a singular electrical engineering officer per year and all of it at a naval academy not the army technical academy
>you might end up as cannon fodder either way.
by cannon fodder I mean be in a highly deadly position, i.e. not a technician atleast some km away from the front line
>then you should have enough funds stored to bribe anyone, a plan of escape and preferably something to shoot at "recruiters"
I am just barely 18 although I have scraped enough in my lifetime that I have about a year's wage in savings.
I have no drivers license as I can't spend my life savings like this right before an important exam, much less afford a car
Honestly, considering my parents with which I live with, they would probably try to hold me over so that I can get recruited so I "don't put any shame upon the family name" which contradicts their actions but it's not the first time they tried to fuck me over and used absolutely anything as a justification for why they tried.

>>1316
>You'll be conscripted to keep communications up and running on the front.
Isn't that more of a job for a telecommunications engineer?
>or in a role that is needed on the supply/maintenance/R&D
there already exist seperate "engineering" programs for supply. That just about limits me to maintenance of electrical grid as romanian R&D is nonexistent and scientists/researchers earn just above minimum wage.
Replies: >>1386
>>1385
>Isn't that more of a job for energy engineers?
Its just the first example that came to my mind. Postman are essential since they need to issue summons somehow.
>How fucked? 
As fucked as the rest of us. 
>the romanian army? Are you romanian?
Nah a pole with basic understanding of warsaw pact doctrines. 
>I am just barely 18 although I have scraped enough in my lifetime that I have about a year's wage in savings.
Well then these are your future goals. Nothing is as important as freedom of action.
>Honestly, considering my parents with which I live with, they would probably try to hold me over so that I can get recruited so I "don't put any shame upon the family name" which contradicts their actions but it's not the first time they tried to fuck me over and used absolutely anything as a justification for why they tried.
Tell them that war is not about fighting, it is about selling vodka, weapons and drugs to the soldiers while whoring out their orphaned daughters. Hopefully they understand.
Replies: >>1389
>>1386
>Its just the first example that came to my mind.
Oh you meant being a delivery boy?
>Tell them that war is not about fighting, it is about selling vodka, weapons and drugs to the soldiers while whoring out their orphaned daughters. Hopefully they understand.
Doesn't matter as long as it makes them look good.
>Nah a pole with basic understanding of warsaw pact doctrines.
you do have to understand that romania is on a different scale of corruption than poland or any other former warsaw pact country, right?
>Postman are essential since they need to issue summons somehow.
to tell the officers when and where to meet?
Also, does a uni degree help in any way, like it does in the u.s?
Replies: >>1392
>>1389
>Oh you meant being a delivery boy?
No I meant the essential jobs are these, that quite obviously, are absolutly necessery to keep up the society and war effort chugging along. Conscripting a dude working at ammo factory is counterproductive to war effort and taking one working at sewage treatment plant is more trouble than it is worth. 
Its pretty intuitive.
>you do have to understand that romania is on a different scale of corruption than poland or any other former warsaw pact country, right?
Irrelevent, especially in the time of crisis.
>to tell the officers when and where to meet?
No, to give you conscription notice.
>Also, does a uni degree help in any way, like it does in the u.s?
At least during peacetime you need a degree to become an officer.
Replies: >>1394
>>1392
>At least during peacetime you need a degree to become an officer.
Even in Romania? I know the military only hires contractors from outside sources.
Would it be prefferable to be an officer during the war instead of simple enlisted?
>No I meant the essential jobs are these, that quite obviously, are absolutly necessery to keep up the society and war effort chugging along.
Well, what is the fine line between jobs exempt from conscription and those regular?
What about those which work as for hire sailors to international shipping companies?
>Conscripting a dude working at ammo factory is counterproductive to war effort and taking one working at sewage treatment plant is more trouble than it is worth. 
>Its pretty intuitive.
even in a top 5 national biggest cities, mine still has power outages.
>Irrelevent, especially in the time of crisis.
Why would it be? Oligarch's sons either escape or get the best jobs while the ones which were supposed to get them are simple infantry.
>No, to give you conscription notice
The regular post man is the one who gives you conscription notice? Don't they just knock on your door, armed, then take you with them willingly or not?
Replies: >>1395 >>1399
>>1289
>Romania
If shit hits the fan, your best bet might be to escape to Serbia, because it is unlikely that they would deport you back just so that you can be drafted to fight against Russia. You could also try to hide in the Carpathians, or escape by sea to some far flung place.
>>1394
>The regular post man is the one who gives you conscription notice? Don't they just knock on your door, armed, then take you with them willingly or not?
First they send notices by post, and only if too many people refuses to show up will the press gangs will go around gathering people. In Ukraine they pretty much reached the point where nearly everyone that can be drafted is already in the army, so they have to hunt draft dodgers. But initially they too just sent letters to people telling them to show up at the nearest recruitment centre.
Replies: >>1397
>>1395
>If shit hits the fan, your best bet might be to escape to Serbia
>You could also try to hide in the Carpathians
I live in the one major coastal city romania has. I live quite literally on the other side of the country.
>or escape by sea to some far flung place.
Only possible option. Problem how would I do such a thing.
The only realistic option is to go into hiding.
>will the press gangs will go around gathering people
will press the gangs into gathering people?
>>1394
>Even in Romania? 
Yes.
>Well, what is the fine line between jobs exempt from conscription and those regular?
There is none.
>even in a top 5 national biggest cities, mine still has power outages.
Does not matter, without these essential people there wouldnt be power at all.
>Why would it be? Oligarch's sons either escape or get the best jobs while the ones which were supposed to get them are simple infantry.
Yes, just like everywhere in the world.
>The regular post man is the one who gives you conscription notice?
Yes. I was one you know.
>Don't they just knock on your door, armed, then take you with them willingly or not?
That is what happens if you dont answer summons are the war is already lost and statesmen are desperate.
>I live in the one major coastal city romania has. I live quite literally on the other side of the country.
Then learn to swim well.
>Problem how would I do such a thing.
Thankfully you have time to think about that and prepare.
>will press the gangs into gathering people?
"press ganging" in english is a phrase describing forcefully conscripting man off the streets.
Replies: >>1453
>>1399
>Then learn to swim well.
The romanian coastline is only 245km long(easily patrolable by the border police, especially since their headquarters are in the city itself) and the currents in front of it are circular, dragging me to the deep black sea and back.
Replies: >>1454
>>1453
How about trying to reach Serbia by the Danube? You could try to build some connections so that you can join the crew of a barque bound for Hungary or Austria, and then leave it once you are in Belgrade.
Replies: >>1470
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>>1454
I am either going to cross 3 nations by land borders or a good chunk of Romania and swimming across a bunch of rivers.
Replies: >>1471
>>1470
I specifically wrote that you should join the crew of a barque that goes up the Danube, because the Danube is the border between Romania and Bulgaria, so you wouldn't have to cross that border. Once you hit the Serbian border you will be let through, as you are on a barque going to a destination in or beyond Serbia. Once you are in Serbia you just have to disembark the barque and get in touch with someone who can help you settle in Serbia for a while. Of course, the difficult part is that you would need connections so that you can join the crew of a barque just when things are about to turn hot, but if you can do that the actual journey will be quite simple.
Venezuela officially annexed that piece of land from their neighbour. Who knows, maybe it will actually go hot now.
Replies: >>1513
Ya or Nay on pistol mounted IR illuminators?
Replies: >>1647
>>1496
Esequiba? that's a very spicy move if it involves anything physical
>piece of land from their neighbour
It's a big chunk of land in relative disuse and the neighbor is defacto England/U.K., Venezuela only armed itself against both the loonies in the caribbeans (Trujillo and Castro, the latter succeeded) and one day to take back Esequiba but right now the country is in absolute shambles, they could've probably taken it back in the 50's and 70's, just maybe in the early 90's but not right now at all unless the brits want to see a shitload of pajeets and niggers being purged by a bunch of hunger-stricken mulattoes and cubans.

The land has been shown in venezuelan maps since forever so "officially annexing" said place probably means showing it as part of the country rather than in a different, cautionary color scheme to symbolize a Soon™ instance
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Can anybody help me find an image? I remember seeing a photograph of 3 flak-vest prototypes, I believe all were French. One of the prototypes looked like a skirt and one had a helmet with what appeared to be a flap on the sides and rear. 
I think the picture was from around the 80s.
Replies: >>1532
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>>1528
This is why you should save everything the moment it catches your fancy.
Replies: >>1535 >>1540
https://inv.tux.pizza/watch?v=BSo1NvVrbEo
>Paul Harrell had to give the channel to his brother
I missed this, and it happend at the beginning of the year. I wasn't an avid viewer of his channel, but there were times I just watched video after video, and knowing that he might die soon just feels wrong.
>>1532
He looks like Darth lil' Suzy.
>>1532
Thanks anon, and you are right, I should save more
>>1506
I don't think it makes much sense, you're using night vision anyway in any situations where you could use something like that, so you've got to have a helmet to put it on, and that means you've got a helmet to put your illuminator on too, and unlike a rifle, your head is going to be facing the same direction you're aiming. 
Also, if my quick test with a regular flashlight and no NODs indicates anything, the IR illuminator on your helmet should enable you to aim with just the iron sights without the shadow of the gun in your hands covering anything on you point of aim. It won't be as tight as an illuminator on the pistol but you can use an IR laser or micro red dot that works with night vision. Especially if you're using one of those newfangled OPSIN monoculars and can differentiate colors.
Is this where all the streloks went to? I mostly use other boards in the webring and only occasionally visited /k/ for vidya so I wasn't there when shit went down.
Replies: >>1816 >>1822 >>1936
>>1815
We had one too many migrations even before we ended up with this place, so the place is not dead, but definitely not as active as back in the glory days.
>>1815
>all
There's probably only like 4 of us left here. Hell that's probably all that was left on tengunigger /k/ before the cafe died, most of the activity there seemed to be coming from cuck/pol/ niggers riding out their bans in the Ukraine threads. iirc one of the guys that was providing most of the actual updates on the war got tired of the lack of quality control then said he was going to fuck off to discord and the threads just turned into more shitflinging and niggerdick christschizo spam afterward.
Replies: >>1935
>>1822
>said he was going to fuck off to discord
Why would a quality poster go there of all places?
Replies: >>1940
>>1815
>denounced image boards and focused on IRL
>were never true anons, fucked off to twitter, discord for the dopamine hits
>were actually old and went back to forums
To much shit has gone down, most chose one of the above options at one point or another.
Replies: >>1941
>>1935
I don't know I've never used it but I can understand why he wouldn't want to bother with imageboards anymore.
>>1936
>not twoo scotsmen anons
lol this kind of shit is probably part if why these sites all died. No one is "true" enough of an anon for one another. As if there's some definite standard outside of "don't use a name".
Replies: >>2014 >>2016
>>1941
>As if there's some definite standard outside of "don't use a name".
It's mostly the unwritten rules of behaviour that do change over time but gradually enough that many anons get to know them even without knowing, there's some notable exceptions in which newfags get to do or post some content without knowing the why in them, for example dub checking was used to derail/castrate a shitty thread by using any dumb excuse which in that case was observing repeating digits aka every time 10 posts are made, and so on.
There might not be a definite standard but there truly is a set of common denominators that do make a "normal" or "real" anon.

>probably part if why these sites all died
They died because most anons have a threshold for activity/dopamine hits aka speed/PPH, those of us who stay here have adapted to very slow PPHs or visit out of pure daily routine which keeps being fed when we get to see something we like every week or so. Those who got out of this game wanted more/better activity and/or are tired of the drama which always happens but in this case got more petty because we are fewer.
Honestly a discordfag (closed, "tight" community) or twatterfag (open, "ambiguous" community) can be "normal" anons (open, "tight" and/or "ambiguous" community) but their base customs are different and when SHTF they will rely back on being fags rather than search another IB. These unwritten rules of behaviour are also the reason we can spot fairly easy when someone is from another IB and our particular problem is that we are weathered to be fairly peaceful while newer or bigger IB denizens are more chaotic and juvenile in nature. It always happened, even back in 4chaim the smaller boards were pretty rigid towards anons from the faster places and their numbers showed that, in their heyday you could see year-old threads in those boards.
>>1941
>lol this kind of shit is probably part if why these sites all died.
/k/ died because of lack of /k/ontent, not enough funs, too much innadoors, not enough innawoods and ultimately too much meta. /b/ and maybe /r9k/ can sustain off of just 'imageboard culture' and navel gazing but that doesn't work at all when the source of the topic is external.
Current events threads helped fill the gap a little but it's a shadow of the old happening threads, when was the last time any OC was posted here? It's all just a spotty recap/summary from other places. the irony is this place would be completely dead if it weren't for content from discord/twitter/MSM that you all love to gaze down upon
Replies: >>2020
>>2016
And lack of content is due to lack of population and lack of population is due to lack of content. 
We are too small to succeed and there is nowhere to grow
Replies: >>2022
>>2020
Seems like folks will whiplash complaining about either too many tourists or a dead board. The magical place had to get going from nothing at some point, right? But as the saying goes "this too shall pass."
>too small to succeed
Define success. Are you looking for a steady somewhat reliable stream of content on this particular topic to passively consume and entertain you?
Anyone got a working link to the SECOND version of the "Redstone Killers" book put in do/k/uments just before the cafe got KIA?
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How do you write in Russian? it gets annoying writing and pasting from this site https://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/russian_conversion.htm and if I switch to russian keyboard it fucks me up the m o and a is on a different part of the keyboard. It causes brainfog when I switch back.'

заранее спасибо большое,стрелки.
Replies: >>2719
>>2708
Just, like, get a second keyboard for Russian. I am not even joking here, buying a cheap one online is better than suffering. Except if the problem is on the software side.
Would WW2 have ended sooner or later had the Allies adopted a Bombing doctrine similar to the Schnellbomber meme of the G*rms, with a strong focus on precision bombing so as not to hit residential areas and inadvertently generate free volunteers for the enemy?
Putler seems to be doing well with that given the morale displayed by Ukraine's yet-to-be-recruited civilian population.
Replies: >>3358 >>8922
>>3353
Bombing important railway stations was definitely more effective than bombing factories, let alone slaughtering non-combatants by the tens of thousands, so it could have helped somehow. But the moral side is really not that comparable, because back then there was no internet, and even in Germany motorized vehicles were not that common for civilians, so figuring out that your side is not winning and you should hop into a car and leave for greener pastures was not really an option. Not to mention that even if it was, they didn't really have any good destinations, as I don't think Switzerland could have taken random German citizens in large numbers. Meanwhile Ukrainians have plenty of options and opportunities if they don't want to die in a trench for the sake of vibrant diversity.
>>8847
Numbah wan plane, pigdog gweilo plane all inferior!
>>8847
It's made in China. What do YOU think?
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>Name is Gaston Glock
>Created the glock
<Did not defend himself with a glock
Why didn't he carry a glock on him at all times?
Replies: >>8921
>>8877
Because for some reason every Euro I've ever met has this total mental block when it comes to the concept of armed self defense. Most of them don't even want armed police, and now said police are getting culturally enriched by Arab men with knives on a regular basis.
Replies: >>9085
>>3353
>WW2
>precision bombing
The tech simply was not there: even dive bombers doing practice far from any real danger and stress had CEPs in the 100s of yards, formation bombing from level attitude and high altitude while dealing with AAA and interceptors and shit visibility because lol today it's cloudy could easily fail to keep CEP below 2 miles.
>Putler seems to be doing well
Given your prior retardation, can't say this came as a surprise.
Replies: >>8926
>>8922
The Germans already had the tech for wire-guided torpedoes during ww1, so making wire-guided bombs would have been quite possible by the 30s, but for some reason nobody pursued that path. There was also the earthquake bomb of Barnes Wallis for an other kind of precision: if you sink the whole district where the enemy factory is located, then you don't have to bomb the whole city for years with surprisingly little effect on actual production for the effort.
Replies: >>8932 >>8941
>>8926
>the Germans tested (and never fielded, guess why) a slow wire-guided glider, with not even 3 miles of wire, meant to be guided from a slow platform
>therefore wire-guided bombs would have been easy to make, it's not like both the bomb and the guiding platform are going fast as fuck and will achieve massive separation
Again, you're retarded.
Also even the German radio-controlled bombs in WW2 had plenty of issues because of primitive tech, and those didn't have to deal with all the wire-related challenges.
>thinking the earthquake bomb could "sink" industrial districts
Stop being so retarded, that was a primitive bunker buster and as such had terrible efficiency against softer target.
Also it wasn't magically more accurate than other bombs, just delivered via dive bombing to maximize accuracy and impact velocity (and thus penetration).
Replies: >>8938
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>>8932
>wire-guided Fritz X not real
>never built earthquake bomb is actually something that it was not meant to be
Replies: >>8941 >>8948
>>8926
>>8938
>The Germans already had the tech for wire-guided torpedoes during ww1
Problem was that operators had to have direct line of sight on the target which brings a lot of limitations and is a double edge sword, to say the least. Yes, there were some "television" experiments by that time but the image quality wasn't at a useful level and certainly nothing that could survive inside a missile.
>>8938
>the German radio-controlled bombs in WW2 had plenty of issues
>wire-guided Fritz X not real
Now you're just pretending to be retarded.
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I'm thinking of putting an inexpensive LPVO on a .22 to play around with at the range.  What are the decent budget options in Current Year?  I strongly prefer second focal plane and simple uncluttered reticles, like the opposite of pic related. Thanks.
Replies: >>9196
>>8921
You aren't wrong, but I think it might be enlightening to consider this from a different direction. All the other wypipo are scared shitless of weapons of any kind, from firearms to penknives. It wasn't always so--just read Kipling, or Arthur Conan Doyle, to see fictional depictions of Englishmen who weren't terrified weepy cucks who pissed themselves at the thought that someone somewhere might own a kitchen knife, even as Abdul and Mbogo gangraped and curbstomped White children in front of them. No one at the time was shocked and offended that Dr. Watson carried a revolver when he accompanied Holmes through grimy East End back alleys, or called the author or characters bloodthirsty maniacs.

The question to ask is, what has been done to them? And how is it that we were spared?
>>9034
If all you need is 1-6x for a .22 range toy, grab a Monstrum Ladon. Probably the cheapest SFP you'll find, and anything below $200 is going to have basically the same build quality.
Replies: >>9300
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I considered Monstrum but I really hate almost all of the reticles they use. Not that they're the worst out there, but they're pretty bad.
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>>9196
...also, I would have thought there'd be at least a little difference in build quality.  Primary Arms has a 1-6x24 that runs just a tiny bit under $200 most places most of the time.  I would have expected it to be superior, in clarity of glass, in repeatability of adjustments, things like that, to, for example, a $59 Pinty or Feyachi Amazon special.  I freely admit that there's a lot about this topic I don't understand and I could be completely nuts here.

An acquaintance of mine who's just getting into guns got a used 10/22 and I helped him put a scope on it.  He got a "Gotical" brand Amazon special, fixed power 4x airgun scope.  It was better than I thought it would be for under $50.  The glass was not great but better than I expected for the money.  The adjustments tracked and I was able to zero it for him with minimum difficulty. Then he turned the adjustable objective focus ring and it came off in his hand.  I'd like to avoid that, if it's avoidable under $200.

I was actually thinking hard about the Konus "Event" 1-10x LPVO. They occasionally come up on eBay for $240-ish.  I really like the clean, minimalistic reticle, but I know it's a "budget" brand, maybe a tiny bit above the Barska/BSA/Tasco level of quality. I can't find much in the way of reviews, and I wonder if the eyebox is going to get unusably small at 10x.

I am already a trigger snob. I don't want to be an optics snob too.  But too much of the "budget" scopes are just ricockulous airsoft trash.

>pic related

YO DAWG
I just window-shopped some LPVOs in a local gun store that had some that weren't the high dollar stuff.  Specifically, they had a Firefield 1-6x24 and a Firefield 1-10x24, both second focal plane.

I did not attempt to adjust the oculars on either one, which might have helped somewhat. The 1-6x was okay-ish at 1x, though nothing was quite in focus at inside-the-room distances. Maybe changing the diopter might have helped.  At 6x everything in the room was so out of focus as to be essentially unusable but looking outside through the window it seemed okay.  At 1x if it was not true 1x it was at least close, which surprised me.

The 1-10x, on the other hand, oh boy.  At 1x it was much more out of focus than the 1-6x was, with very noticeable fisheye distortion and a ring of increased blur all the way around.  It was immediately extremely noticeable and distracting.  Just thinking about it gives me a whanging headache hours later.  If the adjustable ocular allows for me to see through it and see things in focus it would be tolerable at 1x, but only just. At 10x outside, through the window, it was considerably better at distance than the 6x.  But inside the room at 10x it was unusable.  And inside the room at 1x, it was still so blurry that I'm still not exactly certain whether it was close to true 1x or not.  The blur and fisheye distortion made it impossible for me to tell how far off it really was. Maybe on a rifle it would have been different. I'd have been able to hold it relatively steady and use a consistent cheek weld. But just holding it in my hand and looking across the shop with it, holy shit. Irons would have been decisively better.  Maybe changing the diopter would help, or not, but it was pretty bad.

No doubt this isn't going to come as a surprise to anyone who might be reading this.  Cheap Chinese LPVOs aren't as good at being red dots as a red dot is.  I didn't expect the 1x on that 1-10x to be as bad as it was, but maybe for whatever reason the adjustable ocular was cranked all the way to one side.  Or maybe it wasn't.

I went into this knowing already that there are tradeoffs with everything here.  The laws of physics make it unavoidable.  There isn't any "best," there's just better for one use case or another.

https://youtu.be/HbKYBVEYpfk goes into a lot of depth. I watched it before but didn't fully understand everything he was saying.  The gist seems to be, though:

An LPVO isn't as good as being a red dot as a real red dot is for close-in work, just as a red dot with a magnifier is a shitty substitute for a magnifying scope when you need to do scope stuff.  An LPVO isn't as good at being a long range scope as a high-magnification scope with an adjustable objective, either, but it can kinda sorta work for both close in and long distance, well enough that you can train with it and become proficient with it in both modes. This is why LPVOs exist, and why they're decisively better than sticking a pistol red dot on top of a 4-16x target scope, or a red dot and a magnifier.

He also says that the more magnification the LPVO has at max, the worse its 1x is going to be.  "Worse" means smaller eyebox, less forgiving eye relief, more distortion, worse focus away from the center of what you see.  This is why a 1-10x scope is going to be worse at 1x than a 1-4x scope.  This is true even with the high-dollar stuff that costs four figures.  They have to make engineering compromises to keep the scope usable at maximum magnification. They could build a 1-10x scope with huge eyebox, extremely forgiving eye relief, perfect true 1x, no distortion, perfect edge to edge clarity, and on 10x it'd be absolutely unusable, even with the most expensive German glass lenses, even with First World care and quality manufacture. There is no way around this. It's physics.  The 1x is going to be mediocre at best because the only alternative is to make the scope useless at the top of its magnification range.

There is currently a fad for first-focal-plane scopes designed around keeping a rangefinding/bullet drop compensating reticle functional and usable across the full range of magnification instead of just at max, or, worse, at some arbitrary point in the middle where the optics maker helpfully puts an asterisk on the power adjustment ring--or doesn't.  All else being equal a first focal plane scope is going to be worse at 1x than a second focal plane scope.  Its eyebox will be smaller, its eye relief will be less forgiving, it will be more distorted, it will have less edge-to-edge clarity, it will be less likely to be anywhere near really 1x when the markings on the ring say it's 1x.

Oh, and I also really, really, really dislike the reticle in the Firefield scopes.  I understand what they were trying to do.  It's a second focal plane bullet drop compensating reticle. It is designed with the assumption that it's going to be used on a flattop AR15, with its center axis 2.7" above the bore axis exactly, neither higher nor lower. The markings for various ranges on it were set up with the assumption that it's going to be used on a flattop M4 loaded with M855 Ball, a boattailed spitzer bullet with G7 BC of 0.151 at 2840 ft/sec.  Any deviation from any of this--muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient, sight height--and it goes completely to shit and becomes worthless.  It is, like almost all of them, also designed to be zeroed at 100 yards, which drives me out of my mind.  It's 5.56mm, and even from an M4 if you're zeroing an optic for a far zero closer than 300 meters you're doing it wrong.  Also if your ranges aren't in meters you're doing it wrong, and if your reticle dimensions and adjustments aren't in mrad you're doing it wrong.  Yes, 5.56mm zeroed at 300 meters it will hit a few inches high in closer, but not enough to make a difference when the task to be accomplished is fast shots at center mass under enormous time pressure.  Deer hunters zero the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 at 100 yards, if they even bother zeroing the rifle, if the rifle has even been fired since Grandpa bought it at Kresge's in 1958.  They do not make use of the full capability of the cartridge, in part because they are mostly hunting in thick brush country and may well take a shot at powder burn distance (speaking of a use case for LPVOs), in part because an awful lot of them don't know any better.  And a significant number of them only bought the gun and the orange vest as props--they're just going "up north" to sit in a shack for a week and get drunk with their buddies, away from their wives, and nobody's getting the gun out of the trunk at all.

...but to get back on track, goofy rangefinding reticles designed by the marketing department ("It needs to look more sci-fi and military! Put more gubbins on it! Can you make them change color and blink?"), or by some bored intern who doodled something in MS Paint, that he half-remembers seeing in a video game years ago, and sent to production with no notes about dimensions or angular subtensions, are par for the course, and result in fun stuff like "mil dot" reticles where an area ten "mils" across is five feet across at 25 yards instead of 9".  This is why I like second focal plane and simple reticles.  The LPVO is going to be used on 1x like a red dot 90%+ of the time, so please don't distract me or slow me down by trying to make it look like the HUD gunsight of a jet fighter.

And after all this I'm still window-shopping cheap airsoft LPVOs on Amazon, eBay, and, saints preserve us all, AliExpress.  Send help.
Replies: >>9924
>>9923
>Send help.
A 4x28 Tasco will do everything you need. ACOGs are 4x and you can hit the center of the paper man just fine at 7yards once you learn to keep both of your eyes open. Do you know who Jeff Cooper is? If not direct your autism that way.
If you just want to play with the LPVO concept I would suggest Vortex Crossfire II stuff for budget glass that isn't garbage. They're almost as good as Leupolds that are twice the price.
Replies: >>9925
>>9924
The whole point of the exercise is to play with the LPVO concept, yes.
>Vortex
I've heard they're nice but I am not planning on spending double or triple what I paid for a used 10/22 to play with at an indoor range.  This is why I'm looking at the $89 eBay specials.

I was hoping that there might be information somewhere on one of the Chinese brands or models being a little better than the others, but I don't expect much when importers and brand names change weekly and the web pages that list them for sale don't even show the reticles (digression: you'd better like the reticle, because you're going to spend a lot of time looking at it), or tell you whether it's FFP or SFP, and say the adjustments are mil/mil when the pictures show turrets marked "1/2 MOA." Nonsense is present in abundance and it is difficult to find actionable intelligence.

I know better than to try Arfcom, or Le Plebbit, or halfchan's /k/, for all the obvious reasons.
Replies: >>9926
>>9925
The Strike Eagle 1-6x24 can often be had for closer to $200 than $300, and even if you're shooting in one of the few indoor ranges with 100 yd lanes you don't need more than 6x for that. You may just have to bite that bullet and buy a midrange cheap optic rather than a low end cheap one, if you don't want to compromise on the other priorities you've outlined in these posts. Nothing wrong with having an optic that costs more than your gun, even if it's just a practice plinker.
Replies: >>9991
Was it theoretically possible for modern suicide drone warfare to have emerged at an earlier point in time from a purely technical standpoint?
I used to watch Jewtube videos of hobbyist FPV R/C aircraft around 2007-2008, the civilian fixed-wing UAS in use at the time should not have presented many difficulties for military conversion as the planes could be fitted with onboard computers for simple autopiloting/navigation, and could compensate for then-lower battery life by gliding while still having enough capacity for a small explosive payload.
A hypothetical employment of these by either NATO or Russia during the Georgia war might not have seen them used against vehicles due to their smaller payloads, but in the anti-personnel role they should've been roughly as effective as modern quadcopters in open fields.

Was it military boomerism and lack of an existential drive+foresight to invest in small drones combined with poor production infrastructure on the side of the parties that did use them in Syria/Iraq that prevented the adoption of modern day drone doctrine among large conventional militaries before the 2020 Azeri-Armenian war?
>>9927
From a strictly technical standpoint? The Russians probably could have done it in Afghanistan, although they would have looked more like prop-powered loitering TV missiles than the quadcopters we're seeing in Ukraine. Certainly it was in reach by the Gulf War; I remember commercial RC stunt copters from back then that could fly in little horizontal loops and even lift things, if you had the skill to keep them level with a load slung on their skids.
Did Epstein kill himself?
>>9926
>>9927
And for long range strikes against static targets just could just take blueprints of the V-2, add a guidance system that is cheap yet effective enough, and you have something that should work pretty well. So it mostly depends on what is your standard for cheap yet effective enough guidance, but I'm sure that by the early 2000s any country could have afforded those for saturation strikes.
Replies: >>9992
>>9991
>V-2
I mean the V-1 flying bomb.
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Why not strap the NeoStrike into a quadcopter? Seems like a much better option than trying to sell it as a ground vehicle weapon. 

It only weights 13kg and has minimal recoil. Most medium sized quadcopters can lift it without issues. 
I'd rather be able to fling 100+ rounds of 20mm HE from 1km away than have to fly directly above an enemy to drop a grenade or a mortar round.
Replies: >>10282 >>10409
>>10273
>I'd rather be able to fling 100+ rounds of 20mm HE from 1km away than have to fly directly above an enemy to drop a grenade or a mortar round.
Sure thing boss, it'll cost you though. The value of drop-shit-on-their-head type drones is they can be assembled in the field from common parts and anything - as long as it goes "boom" - can become ammo.
>>10273
The closer you get to the absolute MGTOW of a quadcopter, the more kgf the props have to crank out constantly just to stay in the air. Maneuvering and stabilizing takes an additional increase in RPM and if you're already pushing the max just to stay up, it's gonna be damn hard to aim a gun at something, let alone compensate for the recoil. And mind you, all the recoil mitigation in the world means nothing to a drone, because the reaction force has to go somewhere. A hydraulic buffer just spreads out the impulse over half a second instead of thousands of a second, and a compensator would just make it nose down harder (assuming an underslung barrel; it would work if the gun rode on top but also would push the copter backwards with the same net energy.)
Now, all that extra rotor force is going to drain your battery and reduce range. You'll need a lot of extra power available to your front props if you plan to actually fire while in the air. So a copter lifting that 13kg gun needs to be able to lift a lot more than that to actually do anything useful both in terms of attitude control and operational range. And that's before you consider ammo.
I can't find any specs on the proprietary 20mm round, but if it were carrying a .50 BMG it'd run 8-9 linked rounds per kg. I doubt a high velocity 20mm round is lighter than that. The explosive effect on target will be smaller than a hand grenade as well.
So the bottom line is, as cool as a drone with an autocannon sounds, you can fit dozens of smaller drones with a single dropped munition in the same space, with low enough individual weight that individual soldiers can carry them rather than needing to be driven or hauled like a crew served weapon. Their impact on target will be greater, and drones are so hard to shoot down with small arms at any distance that 300m directly above or 1km away horizontally is basically the same thing.
As anti-drone systems improve, being further away from your target may present a tactical advantage. I expect they'll be firing rockets or preloaded recoiless tubes rather than locked breech cannons though, just for size to weight ratio and reaction control power reasons. After all, a 5m wide target 1km away is the same effective size as a 1m wide target 200m away.
Replies: >>10410
>>10409
I had to laugh
>MGTOW
is the stronk independent men who don't need no bitches. MTOW is the weight an aircraft can take off with.
Replies: >>10411
>>10410
"Maximum Gross Take-Off Weight", as in the total weight of the airframe, powerplant, and all  fuel, equipment and cargo. Relevant in this case because if you have, say, a 100kg UAV which has a MTOW of 20kg, it's already close to the practical ceiling without a load. On paper it can go straight up with 20kg underneath, sure, but you're not going anywhere with it. Conversely if you have some kind of UFO weighing just 5kg with the same MTOW, you could carry the gun and a few rounds with plenty of TWR to spare.
I've been in aviation since before "Men Going Their Own Way" was a thing anyone had heard of and I refuse to be technically inaccurate because of it.
Replies: >>10412
>>10411
That's my mistake, I did not realize you meant the gross weight and thought it was a typo. The rest of your first post is spot on by the way.
>>9927
>Was it military boomerism 
To be entirely fair, in affluent industrialized nations the military establishments have always been prime targets for con artists of every kind.  Every Ministry of Defence building has a line of fast-talkers at the door that stretches around the block.  Everybody's got the inside dope on the Next Big Thing that's going to Revolutionize the Battlefield, gib moneis pl0x or I sell it to ur enemies instead, lol.  Ambrose Bierce wrote a blackly humorous short story about it called "The Ingenious Patriot" in 1873.  Nothing has changed.

This is why military establishments are slow to adopt the Big Thing that everyone in the history books written a century later will castigate them for rejecting.  They're dealing with used-car-salesman-tier creeps with their hands out every single day.  One in many thousands has something that is actually worth a damn.  They don't always pick up on it.
From a logistical and manufacturing perspective, it seems to make sense to just make a gun-mounted flashlight that can focus its light well enough to be an effective replacement for a laser sight. But would it work in practice? An other similar alternative might be to combine a laser sight and a rangefinder, so that for longer range shooting you just flash it once or twice to get the range, but for closer distances you turn on the laser and just use it for aiming.
Replies: >>11881
>>11871
If you want to be able to use it as a rangefinder there is no good alternative to a laser if you want to be able to mount it on something man-portable. A flashlight, however clever the arrangement of lenses, is not likely to be able to reach out far enough.

If you are talking about a rangefinder, you are talking about a centerfire rifle. And with post-1890 service rifle cartridges it doesn't matter, for the user, in terms of trajectory, whether the target is at 100m or 300m. Whether it is at 500m or 600m matters a lot. A LOT. Even purpose-built hand-held laser rangefinders are iffy at a quarter mile, especially if it isn't a specially made reflective target, especially if there's any trace of dust or mist, let alone fog or rain.

>but the Such-and-Such Brand laser rangefinder they sell on Amazon says it has a range of one mile!

lol. Lmao, even.

To the extent the concept has any applicability, there are infrared laser sights made for military use with night vision gear, and some of them come with a lens add-on that spreads the beam into a short-range IR spotlight. The people selling them make vast and optimistic claims for them but they're a compromise.
What's a good general purpose knife ?
Replies: >>12201
>>12181
One that is made properly, with quality materials, in your country.
Are there anon-written guides for total n00bs to gun fun and related fields like hunting, fishing, life innawoods and mostly off-grid, the best in self-defense against intruders and wildlife like the best bear sprays, and so on? Not gonna web-search, won't trust that someone who knows next to nothing can differentiate between legit info and SEO-pozzed snake-oil salesmen. Perhaps a sticky of similar quality to the venerable /fit/ sticky?
I finally got an LPVO.  I also got a S&W MP 15-22 rifle on impulse because it was on sale and there were "bonus bucks" for signing up for the store credit card, and, anyway.

The scope is a Konus 1-6x24mm with an illuminated etched glass reticle.  I have it in an off-brand Chinese QD cantilever mount at 1.5" height.  If anyone cares, my general impressions follow.

It's a second focal plane optic.  The reticle is a big ring, 28 MOA ID, 36 MOA OD, with a 1 MOA dot in the center.  There are posts at 3, 6, and 9 o'clock around the ring.  Now, those dimensions are at 6x.  At 1x everything is six times that.  I'm a bit more used to thinking in mrad for this kind of thing.

Anyway.  The good points:  it's lighter than average for 1-6 LPVOs.  The glass quality is very good for a <$200 scope.  At 6x it's very clear and crisp edge to edge.  The reticle design is relatively uncluttered.  The eye box on 1x is not terrible.  It's not too hard to get behind in a hurry.  The turrets are low profile and capped, which I prefer.  The adjustments are very tactile and clicky.  You can both hear and feel it.

On the other hand, on 1x there is a very distinct ring, maybe the outer 20% of the field of view, that's pretty significantly distorted, and the outer edge of that is way out of focus.  The field of view according to the specs in the manual is average-ish for a 1-6x but on 1x it feels a lot smaller because of the distortion and blur.  I know, this is a tradeoff.  The eye box is a lot smaller at 6x, and at 6x you're not getting behind it in a hurry, but c'mon, did you expect to?

When the magnification goes up to 6x the image is noticeably dimmer.  I do most of my shooting at an indoor range and the lighting is shit, especially past seven yards, because electricity costs money and 99% of the other customers are people who've never seen a gun before except on TV and want to try to practice a little before the CCW course, so they hang up a B27 at four or five yards and have at it with the rented Glock 19.  Outdoors the dimness isn't really noticeable.  Indoors it's very noticeable.

There is no throw lever.  There is no provision for a throw lever.  No one makes a throw lever to fit it.  The magnification ring feels smooth enough but you ain't changing the setting in a hurry.

The adjustable ocular is very smooth and has just the right amount of resistance.  It also changes the magnification noticeably when you rotate it right and left.  Maybe it's not supposed to, but it does.

The adjustments, it says, are 1/2 MOA.  They aren't.  They're an awful lot more than that.  I estimate them at about half again that, or about 0.2 mrad per click.  This gave me fits trying to zero it until I figured it out.

The illumination is mediocre.  The model I received has two color illumination.  There is red, which with a fresh battery is daylight visible.  By that I mean that if you're looking into bright sunlight it doesn't wash out the illumination fully.  If you're looking into an area that has bright sunlight and deep black shadows, the illumination is bright enough to give you contrast and allow you to aim at things in the dark areas while you're in the light, if only just.  Indoors the red illumination comes on strong and feels like it's almost really "red dot bright," which it obviously isn't when you go outside with it.

It also has blue illumination, which is apparently a thing now, and the blue is worthless.  The blue illumination is feeble and you can't really see it indoors if the lighting isn't very dim.  I don't get it.  It seems pointless.  There would have been a point to very bright green illumination as an alternative to red, but not this.

And once I zeroed it at 25 yards, I began using it for what I intended:  CQB drills.

I set up an IDPA silhouette target at ten yards.  Back at the firing line I lock and load and begin from the low ready, with the scope on 1x and the illumination at max.  I have a cheap airsoft lookalike Surefire clone bolted onto it with a pressure switch mounted just behind the front sight base.  I come up from low ready, I put my nose to the charging handle, I illuminate the target, I take it off safe, I try to focus on the target rather than the dot, I hold about 2" high to compensate for sight axis over bore axis, and I press the trigger.  Safety goes back on and I bring the rifle back down to low ready.  I try to do this as fast as I can while still keeping everything in the 4" down-zero circle in the head.  This probably sounds pretty rudimentary to a lot of you, but this is an indoor range.  A typical practice session for me is two hundred rounds of whatever .22 was cheapest at Wal-Mart or Dunham's or Bass Pro Shops.  The rifle is reliable, the trigger is crisp but extremely heavy, and two hundred rounds like this is pretty fatiguing.  I'm trying to build proficiency.  It's a lot harder than I thought it would be.  It feels more like "work" and less like "messing around at the range."

I think it would help a lot if the scope's illumination were bright enough to be truly red dot bright.  Also it'd be nice if the reticle had some kind of feature, like maybe a non-illuminated second dot that would be, at 1x, around ten or twelve mrad down below the one in the center for close work.  As it is that ring is yuge, with an inner diameter of about 58 mrad when it's dialed down to 1x.  I was kind of hoping to be able to use the bottom center part of the ring, directly below the center dot, as a holdover point for CQB, but it's just too big.

I have a cheap Amazon red dot--well, green dot, actually--stuck on top of an 0.75" QD riser for absolute cowitness height.  It is much, much easier and much, much faster for this kind of thing, maybe in part because it's easier and faster to get behind it, maybe in part because the dot can be cranked up to be enormously brighter than the Konus scope's illumination and is genuinely, for-reals, no-foolin', actually daylight bright.  I got an "eBay special" cheap "airsoft replica" Eotech G43 magnifier to stick behind it, to try it out and see how well that worked.  It's usable, I guess, but not nearly as usable at distance as the LPVO, which I expected.  The dot does not look amazing under 3x magnification.  It's visibly a little distorted and a little blurry.  But it's very usable.

Not that I expect anyone to care at this point.  In retrospect I probably should have looked a little harder for a used Primary Arms 1-6x with the Nova fiberoptic reticle.  I saw some on eBay for only a little more than the Konus but I told myself I wanted green illumination.  Live and learn.
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While I'm shouting into the void, I got to handle an FN PS90 today.

Call me Vermin Supreme because the top rail is too damn high.  I can only get a cheek weld on the top of the receiver behind where the magazine mounts to look through the backup irons inside the Picatinny rail on top.  The guy behind the counter says people who buy them are running EOkeks.  Holy fucking Jesus, I can't imagine.  Why is the PS90/P90 like this?  It was designed long before modern NODS.  You aren't aiming anything with the old AN/PVS5, because its resolution wasn't high enough to use either irons or a scope.  IR laser sights weren't a thing until the Clinton Administration.  Was it to allow for use with a gas mask?  It is a real problem, a big enough one that there's a bustling aftermarket in low-profile Picatinny rails to swap in, that don't address the root of the problem.

I've been doodling in Paint and counting pixels.  It looks like the standard PS90 in production in Current Year has the top of its rail around 3.8" above the bore axis and the peep sight is about 3.5" above the bore axis.

From what I can tell the "carry handle" part, that is actually the top of the receiver, doesn't have any moving parts inside it and just needs to be high enough for the magazine to clear it.  The rear end of the magazine does have to be lifted up a little bit to clear the buttstock during loading, but the angle isn't very high.

First image shows the current production setup.  Second image is what I made farting around in Paint.  Lowering the "carry handle" portion a bit and using a rail that isn't so egregiously tall gets the top surface of the rail over an inch downward.  It might be able to go a lot further down, depending on how you feel about metal thickness in the rear part of the carry handle and how many millimeters of clearance the magazine really needs to pivot into place.

So, explain it to me like I'm five years old.  Either I'm the greatest genius since John Moses Browning or it's like that for a reason.  Since I don't feel especially SMRT today, and I didn't stay at a Motel 6 last night either, someone tell me what I'm missing.  Thanks.
Replies: >>16926
>>16925
I'm just guessing here, but have you tried reloading in real tacticoolly while also being high on adrenaline? It was designed for cooks & clerks who might end up in a firefight, so making sure that they can reload it while fumbling around with the magazine might have been the priority here. If it was up to me, I'd place the magazine on the side. You could have two magazine wells on either side of the receiver, as it is a downward ejecting gun anyway. That way you can make the top flat as pancake and also provide a whole lot more space to juggle the magazine. Yes, you'd get some complaints about how this could maybe potentially make the gun slightly unbalanced, and maybe interfere with the cheek weld in some situations if the magazine is on the same side as your face, but I don't think that these are unsurmountable problems. On the plus side, you could also get rid that piece of the stock that is right behind the magazine in the current configuration, or replace it with an adjustable cheek piece.
Replies: >>16927 >>16934
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>>16926
Forgot to mention: the SMG in gaylo is a good visual representation, as it has that style of magazine on the side.
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>>16926
>>16927
It looks like I'm not the only one ever to think about this.  There's a company in Florida selling serialized receivers, upon which you install your own parts, resulting in pic related.  This version doesn't have the big rectangular loop at the rear going around the magazine at midpoint, but maybe it doesn't really need it if you aren't being shot out of a torpedo tube into Tehran with it.
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>>16934
Alright, youve got me genuinely curious:
>Did they offer a package deal for both a P90/PS90 AND a Five-seveN?
>How much is 5.7 these days, with fedfaggots placing artificial squeeze on ammo? Its not exactly a common round, all told
>are you a member of SG-1?

THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER.
Replies: >>16974
>>16968
1. Not as far as I know. I'm not sure they're even still in business. For a while I was sure it was vaporware. You'd see SHOT Show footage of the maker showing it off, then nothing. I eventually did see a couple of Reddit threads, so at least a handful of these made it into the hands of the public.
2. I haven't priced it lately, but since AAC started selling it, it came down to rough price parity with .45 ACP hardball for a while. All the cheap (for some values of "cheap") ammo and some of the premium stuff sold as suitable for duty and defense is so underloaded that a lot of weapons won't cycle with it 100%, and at least some of it (*cough* Federal "American Eagle" *cough*) lacks the dry film lube that the brass is supposed to have, causing additional problems, but practice ammo isn't $1+/round any more. 
3. I can neither confirm nor deny.

One of the things that has me semi-interested in 5.7mm is the Rock from Poormetto State Armory.  As far as I can tell the guns actually generally run.  23+1 rounds with a flush fit magazine isn't terrible, either, though it makes me think of +2 adapter type floorplates so that you could load one box of fifty neatly into two mags.

I grasp why the ammo companies are stepping on the powder charges.  The 5.7mm is such a small caliber and operates at such high velocities that even frangible bullets will sometimes go through a Level III vest from a pistol.  If they pushed the velocities up by the 200+ ft/sec they've cut it back in the vain hopes of appeasing George Soros, David Hogg, and the ghost of Sarah Brady, almost all the bullets they're loading, including frangibles, would punch almost all soft body armor every time out of pistol barrels.  I assume they have concluded you'd have Chuck Schumer on Sixty Minutes pounding the table and screaming purple-faced into the microphone about how they're going to B& it all the second they are next in power, spraying Anderson Cooper and the cameraman with spittle the whole time. The Supreme Court has spoken on the topic, but it's an old favorite routine and topic matter for him, and it has always gone over really well with his audience of spiteful Boomer cat ladies who've never handled a firearm, never owned a firearm, never seen a firearm that wasn't on a cop's hip or on a TV screen, never met anyone who would admit in their presence to owning a firearm.

If they are not willing to bet against his eventual legislative success in this matter I am not sure I can blame them wholly, though it is also true that people who are searching actively for a pretext to do the things they're already planning to do aren't above just making shit up when reality fails to deliver the perfect news story in time for the vote. They might as well load usable ammo in the caliber, because neither the Democrats nor the newsmedia are above putting lurid, and completely fake, "tests" of "deadly cop-killer bullets" onscreen for Grandma Boomer to consoom.

...also, I have some ideas about bullet design applicable to the special case of the 5.7mm cartridge, but I don't know if anyone cares.
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>>16974
>bullet design applicable to the special case of the 5.7mm cartridge
What's so special about the case, and what kind of designs?
Replies: >>16982
Who is winning in Mali, the goverment niggers or the nigger terrorists?
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>>16980
Maybe I should back up.  I mean the 5.7x28mm is a special case, an edge case of cartridge design requiring unusual projectile design to get the best effectiveness.

Small digression:  the 5.7x28mm is a super high velocity, super high pressure, small caliber cartridge.  It was designed to penetrate body armor at range.  It is surprisingly good at this but it is kind of crippled in other areas.  If we are talking about it as a pistol cartridge, with the most common ammunition it generally manages to put out 200 foot-pounds of energy on each shot. That puts it in the same category as .380 ACP and standard pressure .38 Special.  You may have noticed that as a general rule, for example, .380 can deform significantly in soft tissue, or it can reach the bare minimum adequate level of penetration in calibrated ordnance gelatin.  It can't do both.  The kinetic energy isn't there.  It needs help in the form of clever bullet design to make the most of what it has.

So it is with 5.7mm.  I have read the old IWBA test results.  The original duty round, SS190, uses a 31gr steel-core bullet that's very long and skinny for caliber.  It's loaded to do about 2350 ft/sec out of the SMG and maybe 2000, maybe 2050, somewhere in there, from a pistol.  Call it 2025.  That's about 282 foot-pounds of energy, and that kind of sucks, compared even to standard-pressure 9mm from full size service pistols.  SS190 punches soft body armor pretty reliably, but in bare 10% ordnance gelatin it enters, begins to yaw and tumble after a couple of inches, then stops at 9" to 10", no further.  After body armor it usually does only 6" to 8".

Now, they tell us that projectiles traveling at more than a certain threshold velocity, and that figure varies depending on which "expert" is speaking, but 2000 ft/sec is one of the figures that comes up a lot in those discussions.  And an inventor named Kelsey patented, back in the 1990s, a bullet design that may look suspiciously familiar to you.  It uses grooves and flutes on the ogive of the bullet to amplify hydrostatic shock and the claim was made that this increased damage in soft tissue without requiring expansion.  Could this concept be applied to the 5.7mm, which already generates pretty good velocity?  Maybe?  Could it work?

Mind you, some time back I corresponded with a guy who does a lot of 5.7mm ammo test videos and asked him.  It turned out I'm not the first one to think of this.  He said that there had been attempts but no one had been able to get consistent results.  Sometimes the bullets would generate very impressive hydrostatic shock.  Sometimes they'd tumble and curve in the gelatin and exit out the sides.  Some of the bullets deformed or even fragmented in the gelatin.  Part of the problem was that machined copper may not be quite rigid enough.  Brass might work better, but in the US there are laws about the composition of bullets and materials like brass, that might be more suitable, are specifically named and banned.

Speaking of yaw.  The SS198LF aluminum-core practice ammo from FN has a bullet that's very light for caliber but also extremely long for caliber.  It pretty consistently yaws very rapidly after entry.  The bullets sometimes curve and change direction, but almost never exceed 8" of penetration in ordnance gelatin.  The cartridge has a reputation for lacking lethality going back 20+ years, and I think inadequate penetration is part of it.  Only, I have an idea about that too.

I think SS192:LF stops too soon in gelatin for two reasons:

it's too light for caliber
when it yaws, and it passes through the gelatin with its long axis perpendicular to its direction of travel, at that moment its cross sectional area is so high that this super-light bullet, that I think weighs only 27 grains, just doesn't have the momentum to go much further past that point

Compare and contrast the behavior of the 40gr lead-core FMJ used in Federal's "American Eagle" practice ammo.  Gelatin tests of it are few and hard to find, and all I've been able to see so far are tests in clear gelatin.  Nonetheless when I compare its behavior to that of SS192LF, I am struck by the differences.  It's a short, stubby little FMJ flatbase spitzer bulelt.  It is much heavier than SS192LF and much shorter.  It still yaws and tumbles in the gel, but it travels 2-3 times as far after it begins to tumble before finally coming to rest.

I think that if we are talking about using 5.7mm for defense or duty, a bullet between those two extremes might work about as well as anything in the caliber could.  Engineers were doing work on improving the lethality of FMJ spitzer bullets back before the First World War.  British Mk. VIIz Ball in .303 has a flatbase spitzer bullet that's very long for caliber.  Under the jacket the rear half, or thereabouts, is a lead core, with aluminum up front, or in later production, it can be a plastic filler, or even a lump of sawdust compressed into the nose of the bullet.  This is to push the center of gravity further to the rear, and it is intended to make the bullet more apt to yaw early after impact.  It worked.  It worked really, really, really well.  .303 Mk. VIIz ball ammo is horrifying in gelatin tests, yawing very early and often fragmenting.  5.45x39mm 7N6 has some similarities in both design and behavior.  There is Czech and Chinease 7.62x39mm export ammo out there with bullets that have a rear core that is lead and just plastic pellets under the jacket in the front half, to achieve the same effect.  So this has been done previously.  I think is perfectly feasible to design an FMJ bullet for 5.7mm that has just the right mass and just the right overall length and has its center of gravity in just the right place to make it yaw early in ordnance gelatin and then come to rest at betwen 12" and 18" consistently, from pistol, carbine, or SMG, at close range or at distance.  It might be a little  more difficult, but people developed Mk. VIIz Ball from scratch in 1910.  This might be the way to get as much out of 5.7mm as the caliber, case capacity, and pressure limits allow for.

I've thought about this a lot. You can probably tell.
Replies: >>16994
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>>16982
Honestly, if you are at the point where you need to consider machined brass bullets or designs that require several different materials, I'd say the basic concept is flawed. But there is an other flawed idea: 6.5mm CBJ, which uses saboted penetrators made of tungsten. I'd say it's flawed because tungsten is way too important of a material to be used against random enemy infantry, but it shows that you can make sabots for pistol calibre ammo that works. So what if we just necked out the 5.7mm case and loaded it with a steel dart and a sabot? Sure, it would be a different calibre, but if you can fire it from the same gun then you just need to replace the barrel, just like with 6.5mm CBJ.
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>>16994
I mean, if we're talking about different cartridge designs, a company called Knox Engineering created a straight-wall 5.56mm cartridge about 25 years back to take advantage of what turned out to be extremely expensive high-energy propellants that were too difficult to mass-produce.  I've attached a document that was approved for public distribution.  Supposedly this little straight-wall case could push an M855 greentip bullet to almost 3400 ft/sec out of a 20" test barrel at safe pressures, if it was loaded with the magical unobtainium propellant.

I am not sure how much more juice there is to wring out of a case that'd have to have the 5.7mm's length, diameter, and case head dimensions, though.  Just looking at case drawings, yeah, sure, you could make a straight-wall version of 5.7mm that'd use a .284" diameter jacketed bullet.  It'd be .30 Super Carry but even smaller, louder, flashier, and higher pressure, and the ammo company would have to tool up for completely new bullet designs for it.  Based on .30 Super Carry's documented traits I anticipate that it'd be okay-ish from pistol length barrels at personal defense distances, depending on specific details of bullet design, but it'd make the P90 and PS90 into just another straight wall pistol caliber cartridge slinger, and you'd still have a choice between expanding bullets that gave adequate penetration from the carbine at close ranges, or expanding bullets that would give useful expansion from a pistol.  It's sort of like some of the 5.7mm ammo out there using the 40gr Hornady VMAX plastic-tip hollowpoint.  From a pistol length barrel the bullets expand to somewhere between .25" and .30", and just barely get to 12" or a hair over that in ordnance gelatin.  From a carbine length barrel they disintegrate on impact and no fragment goes deeper than around 6".

The 5.7x28mm intrigues me in part for giving a flat trajectory allowing for an honest 200m+ effective range in a compact carbine/SMG platform.  Go to a place like JBM Trajectory and plug in the numbers (supposedly SS190 has a G1 ballistic coefficient of 0.147) and you can get enough information about drop and wind drift to design a BDC reticle.  I am imagining a PS90 with a 1-6x LPVO stuck on top of it, and that's so stupid and so hilarious that I want to see such a thing, even if only Photoshopped.  It's just like my desire for someone, somewhere, to create an MP5 clone "carbine" or "braced pistol" in 5.7mm.  It'd be hilarious, if only to me.  Yes, I'm aware, it'd require a completely new magazine, bolt, and probably a redesigned receiver, but still.

And yes, I think the 5.7mm is imperfect, to put it lightly, but to me it seems closer to the old Sturmgewehr concept:  "this is not a 'rifle,' it is a lightweight compact SMG with extra range and lightweight ammunition allowing the infantryman to carry more rounds for the same weight," and I think the concept still has some merit.

I don't think the 5.7mm necessarily requires exotic metallurgy or exotic materials in bullet design.  I think a flatbase spitzer FMJ bullet, probably heavier than 30 grains, probably lighter than 40 grains, with a lead core in the rear and a plastic filler up front, maybe using a copper washed mild steel jacket, loaded hot enough for positive function, would yaw early in soft tissue and still penetrate adequately, while costing no more to manufacture than any other cheap FMJ ammo.  FN loads a lead-free "Varmint Grenade" bullet made by Barnes in the SS200 duty ammunition, and I am prepared to say based on clear gel tests that it seems to be at least very consistent in its performance from impact velocities of 2500 ft/sec down to 1400 or so, though I can't find ordnance gel tests.  If FN would just load it hot enough for their own firearms to cycle with it, it seems promising.

I say all these things as an outside observer, hobbyist, and tinkerer, of course.  If I ever get a PSA Rock it'll be a range toy that won't come out very much, not a go-to-war gun.  So I can afford to think of it in those terms.

Also the P90 and PS90 have been around for a while.  I am pretty sure the patents have all expired.  PSA90 when?
Replies: >>17031
Are there any ballistic gelatin tests of the SIG V-Crown ammo that use real calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin? Not the clear stuff, not gallon jugs of colored water, not watermelons (sorry Gallagher), not blocks of modeling clay, not expired rotisserie chickens from Harris Teeter, I'm talking about real gelatin, with a BB in it for calibration, or maybe that Sim-Test stuff that Corbin used to sell. I have no idea whether they're really good or HST knockoffs from Wish.com. Ideally I'd like to see both a bare gelatin test to tell me whether they're prone to overexpanding and underpenetrating, and a test with four layers of heavy cotton canvas denim to tell me whether they're prone to clogging up with clothing. I am especially interested in the 9mm 147gr version. You'd think there'd be at least a few tests around the Internet 10+ years after they hit the market, but I'm having trouble finding them.
>>16994
Why not osmium or iridium then?
Replies: >>17025 >>17034
>>17023
If you're trolling, you got me.  Here's your (You).

If not, osmium and iridium are among the rarest elements in the Earth's crust and cost in the hundreds to thousands of dollars per gram on the world market.  Only about seven tons of refined purified iridium is produced each year, on the entire planet.  With osmium it's more like 100kg.  They're also notoriously difficult to work with.  Iridium is highly brittle unless made into an alloy with a long and exacting spec sheet.  Osmium is an extremely nasty, extremely potent heavy metal toxin.  And so on.
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>>17004
>>you could make a straight-wall version of 5.7mm that'd use a .284" diameter jacketed bullet. 
I specifically mean something that is not a traditional boolit, but essentially a miniature APFSDS fired from a smoothbore barrel. So if the necked out case ups the calibre to ~7mm, then the fin stabilized projectile would have a diameter of ~3-4mm (excluding the fins) and would be much longer than a normal projectile. Think of some of the Project SPIW madness of pic related from the soviets.
>And yes, I think the 5.7mm is imperfect, to put it lightly, but to me it seems closer to the old Sturmgewehr concept:  "this is not a 'rifle,' it is a lightweight compact SMG with extra range and lightweight ammunition allowing the infantryman to carry more rounds for the same weight," and I think the concept still has some merit.
I am so disillusioned that by now I think the concept of infantry is obsolete, so I have to agree that something like a PDW makes sense, because you don't need anything more if the battlefield is going to be dominated by killbots anyway. I'm just not sure how much firepower would be needed and against what kind of targets.
Replies: >>17037
>>17023
>Why not osmium
Using pure gold would be two times cheaper.
>..or iridium then?
Using osmium would be 5 times cheaper.

With gold you lose only 10% density than either one of those, it's a hell of a bargain tbh. Plus gold has excellent corrosion resistant, if we plate the casings with it too some that opens the door to some real nasty corrosive propellants!

Also what >>17025 said.
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>>17031
Fin stabilized sabot rounds from small arms?  On one hand it's fascinating from a merely technical perspective.  And there have been plenty of subcaliber sabot rounds in .22-ish caliber.  AAI's entry in the 1990s Advanced Combat Rifle trials used a 5.56mm case with a finned steel dart in a plastic sabot.  You could surely do something similar in 5.7mm.

But what problem does it solve and what are the trade-offs?  I seem to recall that one of the biggest problems was lack of damage in soft tissue.  The darts are extremely stable in soft tissue.  They mostly fail to yaw or tumble.  If they're soft enough to bend or deform in soft tissue they give up too much of the hard barrier penetration that justifies their creation in the first place.
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Why isn't there more defensive ammo in .22 LR and why isn't anyone doing the obvious thing?

It seems like .22 is becoming more widely recommended as a defensive caliber for a certain category of end user:  the elderly.  This isn't completely inexplicable.  There are now a number of semiautomatic .22s on the market that are relatively easy to load and manipulate with arthritic hands.

And with good QC reliable rimfire priming is a mostly solved problem.  All that's really needed, along with sufficient power to operate the mechanism, is a suitable bullet.  That last part is where it all falls apart.

Federal "Punch" has a light-for-caliber solid that is loaded pretty warmly for .22.  the bullets mostly get to 12" or a hair more in ordnance gelatin--from a pistol.  They are pure dead-soft lead.  Shoot them from a rifle and they flatten into cute little rivet shaped and halt at 8" or less.  CCI's "Uppercut" uses a teeny tiny "Gold Dot" hollowpoint and in in ordnance gelatin, even from a pistol, it expands prettily then comes to a stop at about the same depth, if that far.  In clear gel it usually doesn't deform a bit, and so penetrates a lot further.

The .22 doesn't have the energy to penetrate adequately while also expanding.  Even 40 grain high velocity solids can struggle to get to 12", the absolute minimum.  What is needed is a non-deforming projectile.  During the Second World War, the US government contracted with Union Metallic Cartridge for what was at the time called .22 Long Rifle M24 Ball in order to comply with the Hague Convention.  It used a 40.5gr roundnose FMJ bullet, with a jacket that could be copper, gilding metal, or copper washed mild steel.  It had corrosive priming and was loaded to have sufficient oomph to cycle semiautos while remaining subsonic from a 6 1/2" Colt Woodsman with a threaded muzzle.  Much of it was issued with pilot survival rifle, but it was also used very extensively from an assortment of suppressed platforms by OSS assassination teams in occupied Europe.  Reports from the latter group of end users repeatedly mention unexpected effectiveness. It was theorized that the skinny, pointy jacketed bullet was more able to penetrate light cover, and also bone, than soft lead bullets. It dug into skulls and punched through instead of glancing off.  It broke bone and kept going instead of flattening out and stopping.  It rarely wasted its extremely limited energy deforming on the way through.

I submit that if Grandma has to fight for her life with a .22, these are desirable traits for the ammunition to have.  You would think that if the ammo makers were serious they'd have looked to M24 Ball first and foremost. Nothing superior to it for the purpose has been created in the intervening 80+ years.  At the very least Federal "Punch" needs a hard cast bullet.
Replies: >>17050
>>17037
I recall spoontip bullets for .380 ACP being touted as the perfect solution to the yaw problem with traditional projectiles, so my big idea would be a dart made of hard steel that has a spoontip. It the spoontip doesn't interfere with armour penetration then it would be good against both hard and soft targets. And against soft targets the fins could also help, because they could also do some damage as they pass the body.
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>>17038
>And with good QC reliable rimfire priming is a mostly solved problem
Even then it's not a problem.
Double or quad firing pin.
Replies: >>17053
>>17050
That's a platform thing.  I'm talking about an ammo thing.

Back when Ad Topperwein was touring the country as an exhibition shooter shilling Winchester products, he'd shoot seven to ten thousand rounds a day of .22 LR, doing trick shots in front of crowds.  Yes, it was a very different culture back then.

He'd use half a dozen or more Winchester .22 semiauto rifles and had a team of guys loading them up and handing them to him as each one ran dry.  In one busy month it was recorded that he fired over a quarter of a million rounds, with only fourteen duds.  This was back between the World Wars, too.  Ammo had human-hands-and-human-eyes QC back then, even .22 rimfire.  

Nowadays that's too expensive, and nowadays you may get 3% duds out of a bulk pack carton from Walmart.  But for ammo intended for self-defense, I think human hands and human eyes on each primed case would be appropriate.  Use an FMJ bullet--and no one can even make the excuse that it's a forgotten dark art, or that the records have been lost, because .22 LR M24 Ball had, and still has, a DODAC code associated with it, meaning the full technical data package is on record at the Pentagon just in case some manufacturer wants to know how many drawing steps are needed for the jackets or how much force to use crimping the bullets in place.
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>>17049
I wasn't able to find anything specific to .380 ACP.  On the face of it, the typical FMJ bullets in that caliber are so short and stubby that they are closer to spheres in their proportion than elongated cylinders, and even if you made them yaw 90 degrees on impact it would make little difference.  The article from the crazy Finns suggests that the spoon-point technique doesn't work very well unless the bullet is already on the edge of gyroscopic instability.  I don't know how that would work for a projectile that is basically a length of wire with fins at the rear.  Would any spoon-tip cuts near the point change its mass distribution or the drag on different sides of the point in a fluid medium sufficiently to make it turn sideways?

Years ago, I came into possession of some yellowed old copies of Soldier of Fortune magazine from the 1980s, in whiich Peter Kokalis and his merry band of miscreants were shooting gelatin blocks and opining about what was happening inside them in the moment between "bang" and when the block hits the ground and stops quivering.  One of the rounds they tested, I am almost certain, though I no longer have the magazines, having lost them some moves ago, was a weird-looking 9mm FMJ bullet that Kokalis claimed was an experimental product from Speer.  It weighed 124gr and was longer than average for a 9mm pistol bullet.  It also had an oddly shaped ogive, which I will attempt to reproduce from memory, and a very tiny narrow flat point.  These bullets were yawing and tumbling violently in the gelatin blocks, and, according to the article, picking them up and smacking them off the tables.  There were, I think, cross sections showing very impressive regions of cracks and fissures radiating out from the crooked, curving tracks through the blocks.  They were probably shooting blocks of 20% gelatin, which makes all the fissuring and temporary cavitation look enormously more drastic than 10% does.

Anyway, the authors said that Speer came up with this for the potential transition to 9mm as the US service pistol cartridge.  They were enthusiastic about the damage it did but said that Pentagon "desk weenies" nixed it on two grounds, one of which sort of had some merit and one of which, they were convinced, was bullshit.  Objection #1 was that the whole reason the US was considering switching pistol calibers was for inter-service operability (read:  ammo-sharing) with other NATO member states.  In an era when pretty much everybody else was either issuing 9mm SMGs to front-line troops or sitting on millions of Uzis, Karl Gustav KP45s, Madsens, WW2 leftover MP40s, etc., to hand out to militia and home guard troops in the event of Ragnarök.  These bullets had a weird shape, a weird point, and had to be loaded pretty close to the absolute max overall cartridge length limit for the caliber.  There was some question of where, for example, the MP40s the Norwegians were still holding in deep storage in case of WW3 would function with the odd bullet shape.  And to get the new ammunition type-certified for NATO Inter-Operability and get the little cross-in-a-circle mark on its headstamp, they were going to have to buy several million rounds of ammo with the new experimental bullet and run them through dozens of Sterlings, Uzis, MP5s, etc., and then do exhaustive statistical analysis of frequency and nature of malfunctions to determine whether it was practical to proceed.  It was felt this was a waste, since there were already perfectly serviceable 9mm FMJ bullets available commercially off the shelf with the appropriate round nose and ogive radius that all these old open-bolt subguns had been designed to use in the first place.

The second objection, which Kokalis & Co. felt was nonsense, was that the Russians were going to learn of these gelatin tests and get the next two decades' worth of propaganda out of it, and the Usual Suspects, who back then couldn't suck enough Russian cock on live TV, were going to repeat every word of the Russians' talking points verbatim on every TV screen in the world for the next twenty or thirty years.  Therefore, regardless of any questions of effectiveness, the safer choice, from perspectives of both politics and engineering, would be to grab whatever roundnose FMJ bullet could be produced by the lowest bidder at an acceptable level of quality and go with that.  So M882 Ball got a plain vanilla 124gr FMJ roundnose bullet when it could have had this Hague-Convention-violating horror that tumbled impressively in 20% gelatin and made nasty-looking holes in gelatin blocks in a few tests carried out by guys whose ammo tests usually involved bales of last week's newspapers soaked in soapy water, or blocks of duct sealing putty.
Does anyone sell a spring kit for the Rossi RP63?
>in b4 huegun
I got one just to scratch the itch for a 3" S&W 65, as the prices on the latter are crazy. The fit and finish aren't terrible and it shoots to the sights, at least with 158gr .38s. It sets off 100% of primers, including whatever Armscor and Magtech use, that get so many complaints. However, possibly not coincidentally, it has a trigger like one of those old Arrow brand staple guns.  It has to be every bit of twenty pounds and shooting thirty or forty rounds makes my hand cramp up.

People on the Taurus Armed forum say you can use the spring kits from Galloway Precision for the Taurus 856.  When asked directly GP says "no u dont idort."  wat do, guise?
Replies: >>17123
>>17096
Multiple sources say the RP63 is mechanically identical to the 856 and the internal parts are interchangeable, though fitting is often required due to Braztech's opinions about the concept of "tolerances."  Rumor has it that Galloway Precision takes this position because the fit and finish of the internals of the Rossi revolvers is crap. They are filled with rough as-molded MIM, complete, in many cases, with mold flashing and sprues still attached, and the absolute minimum of filing and grinding to get the parts to more or less seat and maybe pass a function check--if they're doing function checks this shift.  You can install the spring kit but the gun may or may not work afterwards if you aren't polishing every surface where any moving part touches another.  The people at Taurus Armed who are reporting good results are all either advanced hobby gunsmiths or do gunsmithing for a living.  These guys can tell by looking which little ridge on the rebound slide is a casting flaw that has to be ground off and which is a camming surface necessary to reset the trigger.  If you don't have that level of knowledge, don't even try it.  You could send the $299 gun to a gunsmith and pay $450 for a trigger job, I guess.  Is it worth that much to you?
Yes.  I sometimes talk to myself here after I do research.  Maybe someone will see it and it'll be helpful.

I have done spring swaps in Ruger revolvers and it's not too bad.  I got a Turkish "Melik" Beretta 92F copy just to learn about Berettas, and learned how to tear it down do the last spring and pin.  I did a fluff and buff on the internals, and I put a spring kit in it.  The spring kit did not come with a trigger return spring so I made my own out of music wire from a hobby shop.  I learned a lot.  I got a Gen 3 Glock clone frame and I am trying to cobble together a Glock 34 clone.  It was a much simpler, cleaner design, far easier to work on than the Beretta 92 design, right up until I started getting random intermittent trigger reset failures.  What is happening is not obvious to me.  Maybe I'm not tall enough for this ride.

So I am not up to working on revolvers.  There's a whole new world of tiny springs and detents that can launch themselves when you take off the sideplate.  And I do not have the knowledge to know at a glance which surface features on internal parts like the rebound slide are artifacts of the manufacturing process that someone at the factory really should have swiped off with a file before putting in the gun, and which have to be there for it to work.

It's disappointing.  I didn't really expect a cheap South American fixed-sight revolver to shoot to the sights.  I was pleased enough at that to put black paint around the rear sight notch and orange paint on the front sight.  But the trigger is essentially unusable, and it seems that due to poor fit and finish on stuff you can't see until the sideplate comes off, it is not as simple as dropping a reduced power hammer spring into a GP100 or a Redhawk.

And there's not even anyone locally who could do it for me. I have complained about it before.  I live in an area without gunsmiths.  There are people who say they are gunsmiths, but what they mean is they swap parts in Glocks, possibly at the kitchen table, using tools from eBay.  If it requires fitting or polishing, they won't touch it.
Does anyone have any recommendations for RMSc/Shield/SMS/Jpoint footprint optics?  I have decided to get an optic cut slide for a .22 pistol I shoot a lot.  It needs to be:

sufficiently low in mass that it will not prevent it from cycling, and exact figures about how much extra mass this design tolerates are hard to come by, so "lighter than most" is the only guideline here

not a bottom battery design 

green illumination rather than red if at all possible, I know it's a feature less common in RMSc

inexpensive without being complete trash, it's a .22 so I'm not paying three times what I paid for the gun for Gucci optics

multi-reticle would be nice, just to see if I like it, but I know it's even less common in RMSc than green illumination 

The particular slide I have on order actually has enough space fore and aft to mount a DeltaPoint Pro pattern optic. The hole pattern is the same and the recoil lugs are in the same places.  It would be physically possible, and also hilarious, to bolt on, for example, a Vortex Defender-XL. But DPP pattern sights are usually pretty hefty.
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